Dad: Blackwater blew up son's and wife's 'skulls'

[hardflex]

Can you guys tell me which ones it's NeoCon PC to back in this situation?

Newsweek, Oct 15

The colonel was furious. "Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers." He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. ArmyHumvee on a street in Baghdad's Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company. Asked to address this and other allegations in this story, Blackwater spokesperson Anne Tyrrell said, "This type of gossip has led to many soap operas in the press."

Read the Whole article online at Newsweek, it's called 'BLACKWATER IS SOAKED'

They need to be pulled out and contracts ended NOW!

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Well, better than being blown up with a car bomb, and since they have been known to do that, and the iraqies know this is a threat and know better than to approach in such a fashion.

does it make that a fair thing to do?

Originally Posted by Racerbvd

Not going to happen, we don't have car bombers in my area, like in Iraq. Do you have car bombers in your area???

please, answer the question instead of avoiding it
i do realize it's a hypothetical one

Would YOU think it's fair, if foreign mercs did this in YOUR home town?


if the mercs want safety, security
they could simply not take the job
that's the best way for them to be safe
if they signed up, they choose to be in a danger zone, so they have to quit their b!tching and take responsibility for their choice, not hand it out to others who don't even get to choose

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

What are you smoking son? How many times have you been to Iraq? The Middle East? Out of America even? Have you ever met anyone who worked for Black Water? Ever met a contractor who worked in Iraq?

You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about... absolutely none.

Please, turn your oxygen back on before you expire.

blablabla joe, how many times have you posted this sort of dribble on this board? it's your bogstandard answer to everything "you haven't been there"

well, neither have you? isn't it?
show us some pictures of your last visit to post invasion Iraq, please?

Originally Posted by lendaddy

We gunned the **** outta "hate" in WWII.

not really
you gunned the **** out of 2 conventional warring ideology's, Hitlers and Tojo's. both still fought with conventional means compared to the hate mongers of today, true they fought dirty, but then everybody fights dirty in all out war

this, is not all out war by far, this is nothing compared to WW2
it's not even a visible enemy like WW2 had
and if you can't see it, you can't kill it directly
the more you kill over there
the more the hate grows around the world , think about it

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

It is probably a good thing that WWII guys are dying off now by the thousands, as the younger weak stomached generations of US citizens are probably too embarassing for them to be around. As wars go, this one pales in comparison to the amount of casualties suffered during WWII. Hell, there were more US deaths in single days than the whole 5yrs we have been in Iraq, civilian casualties are much lower too.

I am confident that had today's generation had to fight a REAL war like WWII, it would be over in 1 month and I would be typing this in German or Japanese.

Before you tell me to sign up, I voluntarily served in the Army in my youth so STFU in advance.

i think you are in no position to speak for that generation
those i speak to, tell me different opinions
they don't measure shame or glory by means of comparing bodycounts, and they appreciate life, staying alive, not getting killed in violence as a very important quality

[livi]

I am relieved many of you Americans seem to have firm opinions on this matter. Whether most of your conjectures are based on plausible information or not and hence more or less correct is but a minor distraction.

Important thing is you care. Because this is a man-made tragedy with so many ins and outs and a complexity beyond comprehension that pin pointing la culpa on any individual party is at this point of rather academic interest.

The priority must lie ahead. What are your best alternatives ?

What is the general opinion bias among Americans currently ?

"Should we stay or should we go ...lala.laa"

[MRM]

If we stay there will be trouble.

If we go there will be double.

[futuresoptions]

Make mine a double with a ceso's (Spelled right?) taco con frijoles alado....

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by svandamme

was there a civil war going on before the invasion?
was it as bad , so lawless as it is now?

sure Sadam was no girlscout
but they had some form of law and order, albeit not a just one
they had electricity that worked, hospitals that worked
no bombs exploding in the market place
instead of 2 foreign groups fighting for a piece
they only had to worry about one bunch of hoodlems

it was if anything, more predictable to survive for the average Iraqi

sure , it was no paradise, but it obviously was possible to get worse, and it has gotten worse for them. If it wasn't so dangerous down there, there would be no need for the likes of BW providing security for the VIP's, in Sadam's days, at least the governement had the means to provide that security, in whatever form it was.

i said it in another thread
sure it was a ****hole, but it was a contained ****hole.
they should have named the invasion "Operation Pandora's Box" instead of whatever fancy optimistic name they gave it.

I agree entirely with this. It's interesting though how this view is one that's almost incomprehensible to many Americans - even though it reflects what what most Europeans would say about the issue.

I think among many Americans there is this deep and abiding sense they have a democratically elected administration that means well - and so there must be some merit to what the US is doing in Iraq. It must in some way be noble and patriotic and right - even if it currently seems to be going all pear-shaped.

I was at a dinner in Seattle a few weeks ago where this was the sentiment expressed by a number of people. "Well no, it doesn't seem to working - but surely what we're trying to do there is the right thing." I heard variations of this theme throughout the evening. Good grief!

No one wants to focus on the fact that a country that once worked - however badly - now no longer works at all. No one wants to hear that as a result of this war Iraq, the one secular bulwark against the Mullahs has been removed and the whole middle east destabilized - probably irreparably. No one wants to hear about Abu Grahib or blackwater atrocities or the extraordinary suffering that has been visited on the civilian population of Iraq. And certainly no one wants to think about the young US lives lost in a pointless enterprise.

Nor does anyone want to think about the countless billions overbilled by Halliburton/KBR - US taxpayer money that's been very effectively funneled directly into the pockets of Halliburton shareholders whose share price has increased 400% since the start of Gulf 2.

There's this vast collective denial about what's happening in Iraq. As someone summed it up neatly in an article I read last night: "The only people that have benefited from the invasion of Iraq are al-Qaeda, Iran and Halliburton."

[on-ramp]

Dottore is spot on . What the Bush admin. has brought to the Iraqi people, the taxpayer, and to the fine military men/women who volunteer to serve, is 100x worse than any 9/11 attack.

war is good for big business, and big business has great influence. there you go. it's not very complicated.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by svandamme

they don't measure shame or glory by means of comparing bodycounts, and they appreciate life, staying alive, not getting killed in violence as a very important quality

So then you agree with what I said earlier:

I am confident that had today's generation had to fight a REAL war like WWII, it would be over in 1 month and I would be typing this in German or Japanese.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

So then you agree with what I said earlier:

I am confident that had today's generation had to fight a REAL war like WWII, it would be over in 1 month and I would be typing this in German or Japanese.

Way to support the troops Tim.

[FOG]

Interesting criteria on BW success, no politicians lost. If the ROE was changed for the military I wonder how low the military casualty rate would be?

The other inference is that a politician’s life is worth much more than a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine or Iraqi.

Who here really thinks the foggy bottom and congressional types will allow their protection to be under DoD rules, and not as the special protected class?

S/F, FOG

[livi]

Stijn,

Very well put indeed!

No matter if one agrees with your statements or not, your recent posts were a pleasure to read (as always).

As a side note I happen to agree with you but this is a typical example why I enjoy this forum. The pleasure of reading well thought and versed posts. Does not matter if I agree or not. Actually similarly interesting reading well written arguments and insights of the opposite persuation.


Sorry, Spell Check busted again..

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

So then you agree with what I said earlier:

I am confident that had today's generation had to fight a REAL war like WWII, it would be over in 1 month and I would be typing this in German or Japanese.

not necessarely
i'm just saying that whatever you were saying, about shame, in the name of the WW2 vet's, i seriously doubt ,that that's what they would say, as they do not measure things in terms of shame,glory or eagerness to go to war

they have seen war, they have seen horror's beyond imagination
and those i speak to , would resent anybody making claims in their name that the current generation is less then they were, or not as eager to fight

They have learned to live with their memories, and do not wish those things onto anybody else, many have met the men they fought in those days, met the former enemy now that both are elderly, an have realized, that the other man, is just like him, somebody with bad dreams at night.


and saying that the former generations, were more eager to fight, or even harder at it, it's historically not true to say that

because unlike in WW1, WW2 was not something anybody was really looking forward to with a sense of "tally ho , chaps, there's a war on , i'm off now for a few months, be back for X-mas", hence the unpreparedness of many of the european nations that did get run over as a result..The agressors in WW2, caught the rest unprepared with pretty much their pants down, to say the least.
Even the US was not gung-ho about it, and preferred using it as a way to boost economy, and sell equipment and goods in stead of getting stuck into it, it took the Japanese and a bloody nose before the US really got into it.

most countries , except Japan and Germany, in those days tried everything to avoid it at all cost, signing non aggression pacts, not building up troop levels and hardware, as to not provoke the others

So eagerness to fight, it wasn't there initially

and even if you ignored all that , your comparison of the old and current generation is baffling
there is 60 years in between then and now
the world has changed
people are smarter then they used to in the sense that the basic level of education, availability of means to communicate are different.

Then there is the Cold War and the fact that there are now thousands and thousands of devices each able to destroy whole towns in one go
So yes, perhaps people are not as eager to accept the concept of total war, knowing full well that this Cold War is not as Cold as one would like.

you say the old generation would have finished the Iraq war in One month?
well, this generation nearly did finish it in one month ( remind me, when did GW pose on that aircraft carrier again? "mission accomplished" ? )

the war is not the issue, that's brute military force
that's like shooting a beehive with a shotgun
sure you destroy their home
but they will still sting you to death if you are stupid enough to stick around for the bees to sting you, a 5 year old knows that much, guess GW and his good ol' boys aren't yet at that level of reasoning.... mayb a few more years of US flags on coffins, transported back on C5 Galaxy's , till the fog clears up?

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock View Post
So then you agree with what I said earlier:

I am confident that had today's generation had to fight a REAL war like WWII, it would be over in 1 month and I would be typing this in German or Japanese.

Originally Posted by kach22i

Way to support the troops Tim.

With supporters like Off Ramp and George, any war or conflict is bound to be lost.

The difference is that in WW2 most everyone back home were behind the effort and troops.



Now we have wonderful support from people like the above as well as Peloisi, Reid, Murtha and so on.

You guys do not realize that we have been at war for over 10 years. The sooner you realize it and knuckle down and start to try to save Western Civilization, the better.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Way to support the troops Tim.

Not to worry George, I support our present troops who volunteered, but judging by the large number of folks in today's society who whine about the relatively low numbers of casualties in Iraq, no doubt if we fought a real war, there would not be enough Americans who could stomach what the great generation went thru.

Too many Americans cry foul with every single report of supposed wrongdoing in Iraq. War is ugly, sometimes innocents die. Either folks do not realize this or they simply are against the war because it was started on a republican's watch. If it is the latter, then shame on them for putting their politics before their pride of country.

[on-ramp]

Originally Posted by svandamme

does it make that a fair thing to do?




please, answer the question instead of avoiding it
i do realize it's a hypothetical one

Would YOU think it's fair, if foreign mercs did this in YOUR home town?


if the mercs want safety, security
they could simply not take the job
that's the best way for them to be safe
if they signed up, they choose to be in a danger zone, so they have to quit their b!tching and take responsibility for their choice, not hand it out to others who don't even get to choose




blablabla joe, how many times have you posted this sort of dribble on this board? it's your bogstandard answer to everything "you haven't been there"

Joe thinks just because he flies his plane to a city, gets in his shiny new rent-a-car and drives around the 'hood for a couple of hours before hopping back on his plane and flying away, that he knows about the culture and how the people really live and survive. LOL

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

With supporters like Off Ramp and George, any war or conflict is bound to be lost.

The difference is that in WW2 most everyone back home were behind the effort and troops.

Now we have wonderful support from people like the above as well as Peloisi, Reid, Murtha and so on.

You guys do not realize that we have been at war for over 10 years. The sooner you realize it and knuckle down and start to try to save Western Civilization, the better.

aah shucks Joe
disagreement of governement policy, is in no way a diss on the troops
you sound like a communist, it's a very USSR thing to go after dissident opinions... haven't been there myself, so according to you , i probably can't comment on how the USSR was like

question is, have you been to the USSR under commie rule??
little meet and greets with Putin's boys? long and meaning full meetings with the enlightened minds of the polit buro? guzzling down wodka while having your way with Ukranian peasant girls ?

please, do tell us your wonderfull stories

perhaps it's more interesting than your bogeyman stories about the danger to western civilisation,
or are you , a fan of Goering instead?

"“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”


btw, Terrorisme has been around a lot longer then the last 10 years
y'all have been pissing off arabs for a lot longer then that, and they have been foaming at the mouth for a lot longer then that
it's been messing around in foreign nations business that got you all into this mess, and it won't stop till you guys back off first, you can take that to the bank.

[Superman]

I would point out the critical differences between WW2 and this current quagmire. There is little similarity.

It is dishonest to pretend that Iraq attacked the United States. It did not. But Japan did.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was a declaration of war on the United States. By another country. A country that had ambitions of expansion.

There is no nation we are fighting in Iraq. We are not quelching an overt strategy of imperialism. Iraq was not a danger to any other nation's real estate. The fight in Iraq is purely ideological. It is a political contest we are wrongly trying to win using gunpowder. It is hatred. Japan was ambitious. Terrorist are hate-inspired. Ideology-inspired. That's a whole different thing from WW2.

I wish I disagreed with Tim. I wish I could say Americans are just as tough, just as hard-working, just as responsible as my parents' generation. But I hold out hope. I've got to believe that, given similar circumstances to WW2 (Iraq's circumstances are nowhere near similar), the Sleeping Giant would smell the coffee.

[Rikao4]

Stijn,
like you said
Pandora's box is open..to late..the Genie is loose.
This will haunt us for years...and never be truly over for either side.
Rika

[Joeaksa]

Originally Posted by on-ramp

Joe thinks just because he flies his plane to a city, gets in his shiny new rent-a-car and drives around the 'hood for a couple of hours before hopping back on his plane and flying away, that he knows about the culture and how the people really live and survive. LOL

If you only knew.

How many countries in the middle east have you lived in? How many countries in the middle east have you worked in? How many countries have you visited?

I have done all three, having lived and worked in Saudi, UAE, Bahrain, Lebanon. Worked and spent a lot of time in ALL of the middle eastern countries except Iran. ALL OF THEM.

How much time have you spent in Pakistan? Afganistan? India? Please tell us your vast experience? You seem to know everything about it so please tell us how you know all of this.

SJ,

I lived surrounded by a communist country for many years, East Germany. Traveled to every communist country there is except North Korea, both before and after the Berlin Wall fell. Am going back to Moscow in a week in fact. Am pretty experienced in that area, thats why I am being sent there. What are your vast experiences in that area? Please tell us your stories and experiences? How well do you know the "Silk road" or the kazakhstan areas?

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Joeaksa

SJ,

I lived surrounded by a communist country for many years, East Germany. Traveled to every communist country there is except North Korea, both before and after the Berlin Wall fell. Am going back to Moscow in a week in fact. Am pretty experienced in that area, thats why I am being sent there. What are your vast experiences in that area? Please tell us your stories and experiences? How well do you know the "Silk road" or the kazakhstan areas?

knew you'de say that, hell, it said so in my post...

so i'm right then, you are in touch with the commie inside you, you do like the idea of getting rid of those with dissident opinions?

a commie who's a fan of Goering then?
interesting combination to say the least,
instigate fear in the population to get them in a pro war state,
and send anybody who fails to agree to the goelag?

btw, who's SJ ?