Kimi still champ!

[Henry Schmidt]

Ilmor engineers would chuckle

Originally Posted by MFAFF

Henry,

In F1 the driver who can best prepare his car and team will usually win the WDC..see Damon Hill, not the best racer by far, nor the quickest, but in talking to those who worked with him and others (like MS) certainly one of the best ever development drivers. He was able to get his car onto the front row and drive from the front, watching him cut thro traffic was painful. I think you may be reading Damon's success incorrectly. I believe that DH's success was based on two factors. First, seat time in a new technology. As a test drive for Williams he had more seat time with Active suspension, automatic transmission and traction control than any drive in the field. As the developer of these technologies William had a jump on the field. As soon a Damon was challenged by a competent driver his dominance ended. Jack Jack Villeneuve as a rookie almost beat DH and would have had a wheel not fallen off in the last race. The next year JV pounded DH in the WDC.

It is the fundamental reason why MS won so often, he crafted a very good team and worked very hard to develop the car he wanted race...that gave him the best possible chance to win WDCs, even when his car was not as good as others.. like the McLaren in 2001. His speed and racing ability ensured he won a record number of WDCs, even if with a 'better character' he could have had another one or perhaps two championships to his name (1997 and 2006) Other than to say MS had exceptional car control along with a great understanding of how race cars function, I agree

FA did the same at Renault, it was there or there abouts with regard to McLaren in 2006, but KR, whilst a better racer and faster on race day was not as diligent as FA during testing and development; hence the car was not as reliable as the Renault.... Development does not happen overnight . FA did not come to McLaren and magically turn them around. FA was the beneficiary of Kimi's development work and the theft of Ferrari technical data for race set up. There is no other way to explain McLaren's ability to come to grips (pun intended) with the Bridgestone tyre. I might add that he shared (at least at first) with Hambone.

You might believe, as an ex-pro that all you can do is turn up, drive as well as you can and hope for the best, but F1 allows the driver far more input, IF that is what they want to do.... MS wanted to, as did DH and as does FA, spending far more time with the team, talking to the designers and engineers about what they want to driver and how they do it...others like Jenson Button and KR have a more relaxed approach, leaving the designers to create the best they can with little additional input. All forms of racing allow the drive to aid in the development of the car. The input is generally restricted to track set up. The driver rarely has input on technical things like engine specs, aerodynamics or suspension hydrodynamics. The driver takes what is offered, makes minor suggestions to suit his style and does the best he can. I would suggest that the Elmor designers would chuckle at Alonzo's attempts at cam specifications, engine management programs or thermodynamics of heat dispercement in exhaust coatings.
I would suggest that a good look at the results over the last decade suggests the teams that have the most driver input during the design and development of the car are those who have the majority of the success, is that luck, talent or hard work? I would counter by saying that the driver who gets the most out of the equipment he is provided with has the most value to a competitive team. It's the job of the test driver to develop the car and the job of the racer to put it through it paces. Pedro de la Rosa has more to do with McLarens current success than Alonzo ever did.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by artplumber

The act of quoting somehow suggests the inability to think vs Henry knows best (with additional butchering of the language)? Such hubris.... At least try to get a little more punctuation in there - you know commas, periods, stuff like that. Then you can move up to the colon and semicolon.... Is that bloviating too?

Pleese feel frea to brake out your red pencal and currect my grammer and spelling anytime you like. At least then I will know you're reading the words even if you're not getting my intent.

cheers

[MFAFF]

Henry,

In forming my view on DH's success I have not 'read' anything.... I have relied on conversations with the engineers who worked with him at the time and who worked with other now retired or decreased drivers. I prefer to use their experience as a guide.

You are right, he had more seat time.. and had, according to those engineers a very good understanding of how to give the right information to the engineers as to how the car was reacting from a driver's perspective. However as an ex- racer I am in no doubt sure you know more....

As to his competence as a racer, it was never in doubt that he was not the 'best', he was good, but not brilliant, even by his own admission.

JV trounced him in 1997 because he was driving a Williams and DH was driving an Arrows. DH managed to get the Arrows onto the podium and in Hungary that year overtook MS in the race and was easily showing JV the way home until a hydraulic problem slowed him down...not a bad set of results for the team was it?

In 1998 JV finished 5th in the WDC driving a Williams Renault, whilst DH was 6th in the Jordan Honda... hardly a trouncing...

As you say MS had great car control and a great understanding of how cars function.. becuase he spent hours working with the engineers to understand how the cars worked and telling them what he wanted the damn car to do..

As for FA 'benefitting' from KR's work.. I wonder how much, if any, input KR had for the 2007 car, remember he had a signed contract with Ferrari as of the end of the 2005 season and Ron Dennis would have kept him well away from the 2007 car, whilst PDR, Gary Parffit and others including LH would have had more influence than KR...The aim being to ensure Ferrari did not gain knowledge of the 2007 car from KR

As you are such a Ferrari fan I'll not even begin to challenge the assertion that its only due to Ferrari info that McLaren were able to beat them. You are entitled to your opinion, and afterall as an ex-racer you will know best, irrespective of any one else's view.

From my conversations it was clear that drivers like DH and others had a major input into issues such as the 'character' of the car, leading to an influence over wheelbase, weight distribution; the fundamental bias of the car, a 'nervous' car or a more 'stable' one.. Viz:- MS's choice to have a very 'pointy' car which as not to his fellow drivers' preference, talk to the ex-Stewart Racing or Honda guys a to how RB prefers his car, or JB...

This gives the designers the 'brief' for the type of car they are aiming to produce...and it depends partly on the driver who will race it.. its pointless having the fastest car on the track if the driver is unable to exploit it or uncomfortable in the extremities of its performance envelope. If you look at MS's success he often did not have the absolutely fastest car, but he had a car in which he had total confidence, he was therefore able to push harder for longer. You are however right the drivers will not tell the designers what damping rates to use, but they will tell them how they want the damping to feel and behave.

I also guess that Paul Morgan or Marion Illen didn't listen to Mika as to the character of the engine he wanted... ensuring that his engineers looked at cam profiles and EM profiles that delivered the power as Mika was comfortable driving it...to say nothing of how the throttle responds.... but you are right he wasn't too interested in the drivers' opinion on the exact details of how to achieve it, as I am sure Mika was uninterested in PM's driving tips...

You last paragraph is interesting, if somewhat undermined by the amount of development driving that the 'race' drivers do prior to the season starting...PDR has had more to do with it; he's been there a few years more......but its interesting to see that even with the new tyres at the beginning of the season the McLarens were more threatening than in the 2006 season...perhaps FA's influence reflects that when compared to the same period in the 2006 season, when PDR and KR were doing the same roles.

I guess the driver who can help the most in creating the best car possible and exploit it the best is the one with the greatest value to a team. A very fast driver and hard core racer who is pretty ineffective at developing a car (JPM, JV for example) offers a quick success but poor future for an F1 team...

But I'll use the record of the good development and race drivers (by reputation) speak for itself.... from 1997 until 2007 eight championships have been won by drivers who were good at developing a car, Mika, MS and FA and two have been won by drivers who were far more regarded for their racing skills, JV and KR...want to go further back we have two more from MS, plus DH....then a racer... Nigel Mansell... then we are back to the Senna and Prost years, two drivers who were devoted testers...then in 1987 its Piquet...so in twenty years is looking like 15 for those drivers who were good at both and 5 for the pure racers....

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Pleese feel frea to brake out your red pencal and currect my grammer and spelling anytime you like. At least then I will know you're reading the words even if you're not getting my intent.

cheers

What?! No (more) pithy comments? Ease up dude.

Anyway, back to the real discussion. It certainly appears that you are approaching this discussion from a purely "speed on a lap" standpoint, whereas others including myself feel that champions (which would seem to be the best all-around drivers) aren't necessarily pure speed merchants, but people that can make the whole team faster and still not "use up" the equipment before the end of the race.

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by artplumber

What?! No (more) pithy comments? Ease up dude. What ? No spelling corrections. I'm so disapointed.

Anyway, back to the real discussion. It certainly appears that you are approaching this discussion from a purely "speed on a lap" standpoint, whereas others including myself feel that champions (which would seem to be the best all-around drivers) aren't necessarily pure speed merchants, but people that can make the whole team faster and still not "use up" the equipment before the end of the race.

Obviously Ferrari, who can have any driver they choose (perhaps LH is the exception) feels that Kimi is that guy. Note they signed Massa while Alonso was available.
You can't believe after this year that Fred is a guy who can pull a team together.

Only time will tell but my guess (if I'm entitled to one) is that Kimi will only get better and will assume his place as one of Formula Ones greatest drivers. Of course this is only a guess.