Kimi still champ!

[911teo]

Originally Posted by motion

Matteo, are you suggesting that the Hamster parked the car in the gravel on purpose, on orders from Bernie?

3 races before the end of the season there was an interesting article on "La Gazzetta dello Sport" the biggest daily Italian newspaper.

It was titled "this is why you should bet money on a Raikkonen win".
It went into details about the various relationships between sponsors, Bernie, Dennis, Haug, Montezemolo, the FIA and the other team principals.

It also ran a couple of different scenarios about the outcome of the WDC and the consequences of each.

The best scenario for all involved (including Vodafone, Mercedes, Abbey, Hams, Dennis etc) was a victory for Kimi.

It went as far as saying that very few people were involved in the fix.


Everybody took the article as a joke....

Ferrari seemed pretty happy with the stupid outcome of the appeal, didn't they? And Mclaren were pissed even of $100m is nothing and they never cared (well nobody did until Ferrari won it without the driver's) about the constructor championship...

Anyway.... it's just a thought.....

Who cares though... Kimi is the champion and rightly so, the season is saved and thank god over....

[Henry Schmidt]

What Red ? The color is simply a way to separate my comment from your statement.

I see you're a guy who likes to see something where there is nothing.

Originally Posted by 911teo

Henry

you can type in red all you want... but the facts are set. Around it you give it your interpretation.

You are entitled to your opinion. And I respect it. But to come out and say that this season witnessed the meltdown of a once great team I think is well just your opinion.


Let me start by saying that McLaren had not won anything in a number of years. So this season is not really that different from the recent past ones...
Two second place finishes in the WC in the last five years with suspect equipment and no controvercy. That's not bad.
In fact one could argue that it was a good year for them to finish with a good shot at the WDC.
Integrity is what makes a team great, not performance. Of course this is my interpretation but that's how I see it. There have been many great teams in F1 that have lacked front runner status.

So to say that McLaren this year tumbled from its previous glory days is a little bit stretched. When was the last DWC won? Was it Mikka? When was the last time they clinched the WCC?
The tumble (your word) comes on two levels, lost integrity and opportunity lost. By any measurement McLaren threw away a great opportunity and as I stated "showed the world their ass.


Fastest driver... difficult to say.... But McLaren lost Kimi and gained Alonso at the beginning of this season... wanna call it even? [color=blue] not even close]
Time charts and statistics don't lie.Keep in mind that so far in his corear Kimi has never had a dominat car.This years Ferrari was close to even with the McLaren
Kimi Raikkonen Vs Fernando Alonso

Career Comparison
....................................Kimi Raikkonen................... Fernando Alonso
Number of Races...........122............................... ......103
Wins.............................15 (12.30%)...................... 19 (18.45%)
Poles............................15 (12.30%).......................17 (16.50%)
Podiums.......................48 (39.34%)........................47 (45.63%)
Points..........................454............... .......................476
Retirements..................38 (31.15%)........................23 (22.33%)
Fastest Laps.................25 (20.49%)........................11 (10.68%)
Titles.............................1.............. ........................... 2

Head2Head Comparison
(105 Races).................. Kimi Raikkonen................. Fernando Alonso
Wins.............................15 (14.29%)......................19 (18.10%)
Poles............................15 (14.29%)......................17 (16.19%)
Podiums.......................44 (41.90%)......................49 (46.67%)
Points..........................432............... .................... 490
Retirements.................28 (26.7%).........................23 (21.90%)
Fastest Laps................24 (22.86%)......................11 (10.48%)
Finished Higher............48.............................. ........49
Finished Higher
when both finished.......33................................. ....29

Note: finished higher when they both finished and the all important fast laps. When you look a poles vs fast laps you start to get the picture. Fred doesn't even get fast laps when he drives the fastest car.

Next... You yourself has just agreed with my point. When you say that McLaren is guilty of receiving stolen property you are absolutely right! I did not say they were not guilty...
But they did not steal them. I am just rectifying some of your observations.
If they conspired (McLaren and Stepney) McLaren is equally guilty of steeling. Did they conspire to steel the data? I'm not sure but it's not a stretch.


Your next point is totally on target. McLaren failed to make Alonso feel (for whatever reason) welcome or loved and his departure is the biggest blow to McLaren organization.

Even assuming that Hamster caved in under pressure and made 2 mistakes (none of which were really his fault, right? NO The team didn't call him in to change the tires and the gearbox went blank for 40 seconds) you cannot deny that he did pretty well for his 1st season....

Hambone raced with Kimi when there was no reason to do so. That unnecessary on track struggle prematurely expended his tires. Try to remember that Fred and Kimi had equal time on their tyres and neither experienced the problems Hambone did.
Tyre management is the responsibility of the driver. To blame the team because the tyres were mismanaged is ludicrous.
As for the transmission, as we all know F1 equipment is fragile. Hambone slammed his McLaren over the curbs on his off track excursion trying to repass Fred and that move may have damage his car causing the transmission malfunction. Why would he force the issue with Fred? ego? All he had to do was follow along and finish 4th (a relatively simple strategy) and win the WC. Blame the car is you like but that sounds like a lame excuse.

I think McLaren here gained one on last year... One step forward and two steps back. Once lost, integrity is hard to find.

I could not agree more with your last statement....

Peace?


There was no conspiracy. If you believe what you wrote you need help.

[911teo]

Career Comparison
....................................Kimi Raikkonen................... Fernando Alonso
Number of Races...........122............................... ......103
Wins.............................15 (12.30%)...................... 19 (18.45%)
Poles............................15 (12.30%).......................17 (16.50%)
Podiums.......................48 (39.34%)........................47 (45.63%)
Points..........................454............... .......................476
Retirements..................38 (31.15%)........................23 (22.33%)
Fastest Laps.................25 (20.49%)........................11 (10.68%)
Titles.............................1.............. ........................... 2

Head2Head Comparison
(105 Races).................. Kimi Raikkonen................. Fernando Alonso
Wins.............................15 (14.29%)......................19 (18.10%)
Poles............................15 (14.29%)......................17 (16.19%)
Podiums.......................44 (41.90%)......................49 (46.67%)
Points..........................432............... .................... 490
Retirements.................28 (26.7%).........................23 (21.90%)
Fastest Laps................24 (22.86%)......................11 (10.48%)
Finished Higher............48.............................. ........49
Finished Higher
when both finished.......33................................. ....29

If from the above numbers you see that Kimi is clearly the faster driver then.... you are the one that needs help.

I cannot be bothered to reply to your other comments. Clearly you have your opinion, which is biased because of your love for Ferrari.

Fine....

Happy Thanksgiving!

[MFAFF]

Ah the intrigue continues..

.....I wonder what bought Flavio to see Bernie on Tuesday...hushed conversations into mobile phones on the kerb outside are so much fun...

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by 911teo

Career Comparison
....................................Kimi Raikkonen................... Fernando Alonso
Number of Races...........122............................... ......103
Wins.............................15 (12.30%)...................... 19 (18.45%)
Poles............................15 (12.30%).......................17 (16.50%)
Podiums.......................48 (39.34%)........................47 (45.63%)
Points..........................454............... .......................476
Retirements..................38 (31.15%)........................23 (22.33%)
Fastest Laps.................25 (20.49%)........................11 (10.68%)
Titles.............................1.............. ........................... 2

Head2Head Comparison
(105 Races).................. Kimi Raikkonen................. Fernando Alonso
Wins.............................15 (14.29%)......................19 (18.10%)
Poles............................15 (14.29%)......................17 (16.19%)
Podiums.......................44 (41.90%)......................49 (46.67%)
Points..........................432............... .................... 490
Retirements.................28 (26.7%).........................23 (21.90%)
Fastest Laps................24 (22.86%)......................11 (10.48%)
Finished Higher............48.............................. ........49
Finished Higher
when both finished.......33................................. ....29

If from the above numbers you see that Kimi is clearly the faster driver then.... you are the one that needs help.

I cannot be bothered to reply to your other comments. Clearly you have your opinion, which is biased because of your love for Ferrari.

Fine....

Happy Thanksgiving!

In todays F1 format, poles generally indicate best car and differing stratagies. Fast laps generally indicate fastest driver.
Kimi has 15 poles and 25 fast laps.
Fred on the other hand managed 19 poles and only 11 fast laps.
Victories on the other hands generally indicate best team. This is evidenced by the regularity of driver and constructors championships won by the same team.

As for not bothering to defend your position, this statement generally follows an indefensible position.

When it come to bias, this accusation is always the position of a week mind. Attack the messenger with words like racist, prejudice, bias when you can't articulate your position.

Kimi was fast even before he joined Ferrari so your Tifosi accusation is limp.
I'll take it one step further. Montoya was also faster than Fred as is Hambone and Massa. We may find that a number of the new breed will be faster as well. Robert Kubica, Heikki Kovalainen, Nico Rosberg and my personal favorite, Sebastian Vettel. Will any of these drivers have the success that Fred has enjoyed? Perhaps not, time will tell. What we do know is Fred is done in my book on character alone. In a pole of favorite drivers conducted by ING (the Renault primary sponsor) Fred manage a 10% share a huge drop from last year. His driving was not the major factor, character was. I believe a pole of teams would show McLaren suffering the same fate.

[911teo]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

In todays F1 format, poles generally indicate best car and differing stratagies. Fast laps generally indicate fastest driver.
Kimi has 15 poles and 25 fast laps.
Fred on the other hand managed 19 poles and only 11 fast laps.
Victories on the other hands generally indicate best team. This is evidenced by the regularity of driver and constructors championships won by the same team.

.

Who says that? You? Who are you?
In today's F1 format.... you make your opinions look like they are the absolute truth. Guess what? They are not.
Given the numbers YOU have brought up there is little between the 2 drivers. Alonso has more victories and more points in less GPs. Has he been more lucky? Maybe, maybe he's just better.

Anyway when I said i am not bothered to reply it's because you obviously have a different opinion and you are not going to change your mind.

You keep bringing out facts and then apply your twisted logic to make your point....

Like Alonso has more victories, more points, more WC, more poles in less races YET because he has less fast laps than CLEARLY Kimi is the faster guy....

So I am just saying that I have better things to do than to argue with someone that will never change his opinion.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most things.

Please refrain from more personal attacks, the commenst about me needing help or being weak minded are quite lame and not necessary.

[sammyg2]

[javadog]

Originally Posted by 911teo

Like Alonso has more victories, more points, more WC, more poles in less races YET because he has less fast laps than CLEARLY Kimi is the faster guy....

Well, I think that much of any drivers success depends also on the team, the car , the tires, etc. So, it's hard for those of us watching from the sidelines to really make accurate judgements. When Alonso won his two titles, Renault was clearly at the top of their game and often Michelin had an edge over Bridgestone. Kimi had an awful amount of bad luck, if that's what you want to call it, while he was at McLaren. He should have won a lot more races than he did, had the car/engine/tires not let him down.

I look at it this way. The guys that own the teams all have a higher view of Kimi's speed than Alonso. That's clear from what they say and from what they are willing to pay the guy.

Plus, Alonso does have a bad habit that will bite him in the ass soon. His behavior this year bordered on the unbelievable. In this day and age, drivers know better than to do what he did. It's a different world now. Companies don't like to spend the money they do and receive his sort of publicity.

JR

[rvanderpyl]

Please note that the teams (all of them) do use equipment to cool the fuel, that is perfectly legal, the rules simply stipulate how much it can be cooled.

In this case the issue is that the rules are written to state that the fuel IN THE CAR has to be at a certain temperature relative to ambient, but the measuring of temperature was not done on the fuel in the car, it is done on the fuel as it is pumped into the car, a minor point perhaps, but basically it makes it possible to say that the rule cannot be applied as written, so it cannot be applied at all.

[Henry Schmidt]

It seems I touched a nerve, man up dude.

Originally Posted by 911teo

Who says that? You? Who are you? Just a fan stating an opinion
In today's F1 format.... you make your opinions look like they are the absolute truth. Guess what? They are not. I never called anything the truth
Given the numbers YOU have brought up there is little between the 2 drivers. Alonso has more victories and more points in less GPs. Has he been more lucky? Maybe, maybe he's just better.I never said good, better or best, just faster

Anyway when I said i am not bothered to reply it's because you obviously have a different opinion and you are not going to change your mind.
When presented with a well thought out and well articulated argument, I am open to a revision in my position, what about you?

You keep bringing out facts and then apply your twisted logic to make your point.... Twisted? If I were a 12 year old girl I might be offended

Like Alonso has more victories, more points, more WC, more poles in less races YET because he has less fast laps than CLEARLY Kimi is the faster guy.... I stand by the logic, where's your argument ?

So I am just saying that I have better things to do than to argue with someone that will never change his opinion. Two fans expressing their loyalties ! What could be better?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on most things. As two male participants in the human experience and obviously racing and Porsche fans I would guess we agree on more things than we disagree.

Please refrain from more personal attacks, the commenst about me needing help or being weak minded are quite lame and not necessary.
I guess you missed the happy face indicating that I was joking. I thought I was dealing with an adult male on a automotive forum not a 12 year old girl my space. Imagine if you would, a bunch of mates drinking a pint and talking about thier favorate football team. After a heated discussion one of your mates says "Please refrain from more personal attacks........ The appropriate response might be "Sorry mate, I didn't realize you had a vigina."

[artplumber]

Ulimately, it really doesn't matter who is faster guys. It matters who wins WC's. FA has shown that he can do it more than KR (so far). FA did this against KR and MS when he was not in a clearly faster car (just equal IMO). KR always seems to have "bad luck" with reliability (even at Ferrari), and had the McLaren team gotten its act together this year and stopped the infighting, they would probably have still beaten KR (either one of them). Plus, FA manages the entire championship well when playing from a lead - ie he takes what points he can and doesn't try to do too much and end up DNF.

FA is a hothead no question. But the english speaking media paints this rosy picture of LH that I don't believe exists because he is viewed as English (though he's really from the caribbean). Same as the way their press treats all cars British vs German, or (OMG) USA. LH is just as much a Prima Dona, and if anything more snake-like than FA, judging on his choice of words and timing of statements etc.

[Henry Schmidt]

Nicely articulated with some points contested

Originally Posted by artplumber

Ulimately, it really doesn't matter who is faster guys. It matters who wins WC's.
As a retired pro racer I have to disaggree with this statement. All you can do as a driver is go fast. You have no control over the rest. You drive the equipment your sponsor supplied and do your best.
Tyres, luck, engine reliabilty are all beyond the driver. I would agree that history only remembers statistics. But for now, I enjoy the pure speed. Go out, go your fastest and if it's meant to be the championships will follow. Too many lames have claimed WC to concider only the WC importent. Damen Hill and JV are two come to mind as cases on point. Now don't get your panties in a bunch. They could both drive but they just aren't the best drivers of there day.
FA has shown that he can do it more than KR (so far). FA did this against KR and MS when he was not in a clearly faster car (just equal IMO). opinions very on this statement
KR always seems to have "bad luck" with reliability (even at Ferrari), with just a touch more luck, history shows us Kimi could have had two more championships and without an aggregious penalty at Monaco Shumi would have beaten Fred in 2006 and had the McLaren team gotten its act together this year and stopped the infighting, they wouldprobably have still beaten KR (either one of them). I agree, but that is where the character issue comes in Plus, FA manages the entire championship well when playing from a lead - ie he takes what points he can and doesn't try to do too much and end up DNF.

FA is a hothead no question. childish But the english speaking media paints this rosy picture of LH that I don't believe exists because he is viewed as English (though he's really from the caribbean). Same as the way their press treats all cars British vs German, or (OMG) USA. LH is just as much a Prima Dona, and if anything more snake-like than FA, judging on his choice of words and timing of statements etc.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Nicely articulated with some points contested

Well thanks, I think.

Racer or not, in business whatever, it matters who's standing at the end of the day. Remember the tortoise and the hare? It doesn't matter if you have speed, if you can't bring home the points IMO.

MS' penalty was debated (hotly here too). I think it was worse than what happened this year between FA & LH. YMMV.

Don't you think that the McLaren in '05 was faster than the Renault? or was that just KR?

As to luck/reliability don't you find it strange that just "luck" leads to high failure rates w/KR in the McLaren and early this year in the Ferrari?

FA is very effective in helping his team improve. If you have just won the WC, somehow (I'll leave it up to you what contrib from FA vs ferrari data) brought your team up to speed, give your setup to the (admittedly fast) newbie so he can keep up w/you or pass you, would you be a happy camper? Realize that MS/9 WC's are not the typical career in F1. I think we'd all be scratching and clawing. Dennis' prior shenanigans w/Prost & Senna should have been a red flag to FA, but he probably underestimated LH's speed and/or the Dennis' requirement to give the setup to LH. FA wears his heart on his sleeve, big deal. I'd rather have someone tell me up front we're in a fight than deal with a snake (that would be LH)

[Henry Schmidt]

It was a compliment

Originally Posted by artplumber

.....edit.......
Racer or not, in business whatever, it matters who's standing at the end of the day. The end justifies the means? Surely you jest? Remember the rabbit and the hare? Life and racing lessons from a children's fable? ............edit........

Win loose or draw hands down, one of the greatest racer alive today is Alex Zanardi and he can't stand on the podium. Hero status is hard to attain and even harder to hold. Alonzo could have had it. His ego tripped him up.
Cheers

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

It was a compliment

Win loose or draw hands down, one of the greatest racer alive today is Alex Zanardi and he can't stand on the podium. Hero status is hard to attain and even harder to hold. Alonzo could have had it. His ego tripped him up.
Cheers

Thanks, jk...

I think you're mixing your allegories. The tortoise and the hare (sorry about that, now edited to correct statement) is not "the ends justifies the means", but "slow and steady wins the race".

No argument with Zanardi, but life sucks

Finally, in the spirit of a little more fun, IIRC the Yoda quote is "Do or do not. There is no try."

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by artplumber

Thanks, jk...

I think you're mixing your allegories. The tortoise and the hare (sorry about that, now edited to correct statement) is not "the ends justifies the means", but "slow and steady wins the race".

No argument with Zanardi, but life sucks

Finally, in the spirit of a little more fun, IIRC the Yoda quote is "Do or do not. There is no try."

The allegory is correct, "the ends justifies the means" is in reference to the statement " Racer or not, in business whatever, it matters who's standing at the end of the day". How you get there is more important to me than where you end up.

Situations suck, life is what you make of it. Just like in poker, the best player doesn't always need the best hand. Alex is triumphant because of who he is not one situation or another.

Just so you know, Yoda got it wrong. Brevity of words wins over bloviating every time. Lincoln's Gettysgerg address is brilliant because of it's conservation of words in the conveyance complex ideas.

Yoda was wasting words in his advise to Luke. But we all know that little green guy tends to be long winded.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

The allegory is correct, "the ends justifies the means" is in reference to the statement " Racer or not, in business whatever, it matters who's standing at the end of the day". How you get there is more important to me than where you end up.

Then you're reading the sentence incorrectly. In the setting of the prior sentence, it refers to who wins the WC and the reference to racer is based on your own "I'm an ex-racer". The winner (or who's left standing in business) of the WC doesn't have to be the fastest (remember Senna in a Lotus?) just the fastest finisher the most times.

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

......

Just so you know, Yoda got it wrong. Brevity of words wins over bloviating every time.

What is this? The Factor?

Since Yoda said it first, I'll go with the quote rather than then "new, improved" version.

[MFAFF]

Henry,

In F1 the driver who can best prepare his car and team will usually win the WDC..see Damon Hill, not the best racer by far, nor the quickest, but in talking to those who worked with him and others (like MS) certainly one of the best ever development drivers. He was able to get his car onto the front row and drive from the front, watching him cut thro traffic was painful.

It is the fundamental reason why MS won so often, he crafted a very good team and worked very hard to develop the car he wanted race...that gave him the best possible chance to win WDCs, even when his car was not as good as others.. like the McLaren in 2001. His speed and racing ability ensured he won a record number of WDCs, even if with a 'better character' he could have had another one or perhaps two championships to his name (1997 and 2006)

FA did the same at Renault, it was there or there abouts with regard to McLaren in 2006, but KR, whilst a better racer and faster on race day was not as diligent as FA during testing and development; hence the car was not as reliable as the Renault....

You might believe, as an ex-pro that all you can do is turn up, drive as well as you can and hope for the best, but F1 allows the driver far more input, IF that is what they want to do.... MS wanted to, as did DH and as does FA, spending far more time with the team, talking to the designers and engineers about what they want to driver and how they do it...others like Jenson Button and KR have a more relaxed approach, leaving the designers to create the best they can with little additional input.

I would suggest that a good look at the results over the last decade suggests the teams that have the most driver input during the design and development of the car are those who have the majority of the success, is that luck, talent or hard work?

[Henry Schmidt]

Fair enough

Originally Posted by artplumber

Then you're reading the sentence incorrectly. In the setting of the prior sentence, it refers to who wins the WC and the reference to racer is based on your own "I'm an ex-racer". The winner (or who's left standing in business) of the WC doesn't have to be the fastest (remember Senna in a Lotus?) just the fastest finisher the most times.

I agree that the championship is not a gauge of the fastest driver. That's my point. In the beginning of this discussion I said Kimi was the fastest and I enjoy the pure speed he brings to the sport.


What is this? The Factor?

Since Yoda said it first, I'll go with the quote rather than then "new, improved" version. Fair enough, not everyone can think for themselves I see what is and try to make it better.

[artplumber]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Fair enough, not everyone can think for themselves I see what is and try to make it better.

The act of quoting somehow suggests the inability to think vs Henry knows best (with additional butchering of the language)? Such hubris.... At least try to get a little more punctuation in there - you know commas, periods, stuff like that. Then you can move up to the colon and semicolon.... Is that bloviating too?