Thoughts on E30 BMW M3?

[YTNUKLR]

This seems like a pretty hot little car. 238hp out of the 1990 EvoIII model (2.5L), 0-60 in 5.7 sec., a top speed over 150mph? Not to mention a twin-cam race-derived motor that revs well into the 7 grand range. I know all the bimmer dudes think these cars are the tits, but generally I find they may not have much time in a 911 (why would you have anything else? ). So, what say ye?

[3.2 CAB]

I can only speak about the BMW that I own, an E-32, V12-750iL, it does have a lot of power and torque, and top speeds around 160mph. But, it is like a sewing machine in its feel, very smooth and very quick for being a luxury 4 door sedan. Loaded with comfort and power. The Porsche is a less refined, more brute force, that nails your ass into the seats. Awesome!! The secret is: Have both, then you can go with how you feel that day.

[MFAFF]

E30 M3 is nothing like the E-32....it is far more akin to a 911...its light and lithe... very quick to respond and quite nervous...

But a marvellous drive..

If you can get a decent one go for it, don't worry too much about an Evo or Sport version.. the original is pretty damn sweet...

Making sure you get a good one is more important.

[TerryBPP]

Great cars. They do lack power compared to new gens but feel much lighter. The main issue is the S14 engines aren't super reliable and very expensive ($8k min). Most upgrade to a s50 3.0liter out of the later model e36.

[MFAFF]

Arrrgghhh no...don't do that..
The whole point of these is the lighter weight of the four cylinder engine....nose is far more agile, far more responsive..

An E30 is so much more sublte and balanced than the later M3s which use brawn rather than balance...

Agreed they need to be looked after more.. but don't destory the balance by shoving a larger and lazier engine up front...

If you want the 6 go for a later m3

[speedracing944]

I love the e30 M3 with its huge fender flares and over the top body kit. It is very 80's much like the 944. I was shocked at the prices of these cars right now. They seam more $ than the e36 M3. It looks much more raw though.

Speedy

[Dave L]

The e30 M3 was the real deal, it was designed as a race car and put on the street. Its light agile and the real drivers car. Later models, still great, but seemed to focus more on M leather steering wheels, M side mouldings and the like. My opinion is that in the e30 era the M stood for Motorsport, after 92 it stood for marketing.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Dave nailed it. The E30 M3 was released to the public for homologation purposes, BMW wanted to go touring car racing. Because of that, it was basically a race car for the street. As a race car, it was one of the best ever. I can't confirm it, but it's often said that the E30 M3 won more races than any other single car.

I've often heard them compared to an early 911. Raw, responsive, and directly connected to the driver. Very rare, special, and cool cars. In my opinion, they deserve to sell for more than the E36 M3.

[3.2 CAB]

What ever model you do finally acquire, you will be surprised at how advanced they are. They seem to be one of the more advanced cars on the road. They had various systems in operation, well in advance for the year models. Things that are just now becoming standard on most cars, have been in use since the late 80's. I guess that is what they mean by, "The Ultimate Driving Experience" and the Porsche is, "Except No Substitutes" both of the mean what they say. I really feel lucky to be able to own and drive two of the best, that are on the road. I was very impressed and lucky to have owned a Ferrari 288-GTO. It was an awesome ride, but I am glad that I sold it at a "Concours d'Elegance" show in Dallas, in 1995. It was a sweet car, BUT A VERY tempermental beast. Porsche maintenance and repairs, are nothing as compared to the 288. Mine was extremely clean and almost like new. It still only had about 18,000 miles on it when it hit the auction block. But, I was very happy to see the cashiers check at the end on the show. I drove it to Dallas, and I knew that it would sell, because I had already booked the return flight home, before I ever left. The casinos on the coast really liked it when I brought it down there, all of them had a special parking place, right in front of the entrance doors. Good eye-candy, and they would always comp me a suite whenever I brought it down there. O-well, enough rambling on.

[TerryBPP]

Originally Posted by MFAFF

Arrrgghhh no...don't do that..
The whole point of these is the lighter weight of the four cylinder engine....nose is far more agile, far more responsive..

An E30 is so much more sublte and balanced than the later M3s which use brawn rather than balance...

Agreed they need to be looked after more.. but don't destory the balance by shoving a larger and lazier engine up front...

If you want the 6 go for a later m3

You mean like dropping a 3.6l in place of a 2.7? . The weight difference is right around 100 lbs. Lose the A/C and get a CF hood and your golden.

But if your into originality then roll with the 4 banger.

[javadog]

Okay,

I have several E30 M3s and a bunch of 911s too, so let me make a few comparisons. Compared to a similar vintage 911, an M3 is a little heavier and lacks the straight line acceleration you get in a 911. Around town, you probably won't like the car, as it is really short-geared and still doesn't accelerate very quickly, unless you rev it high. Since it takes a while to warm the oil, any short commutes will be pretty uneventful. It feels much better at highway speeds, so that is where it is happiest.

Where it will smoke a 911 is in the braking and handling department. It has ABS, so the wheel locking you get in a 911 on poor surfaces, or the one-wheel locking you get on uneven roads won't happen. As a result, you can hammer the brakes on any road, without any concern for what may happen. It is also perfectly balanced and is extremely responsive to either steering or throttle inputs, in a corner. With good tires, you'd be amazed at the cornering speeds you can generate. You can push one a lot harder on the street safely than you can a 911 because they are so viceless. Where they really shine is on corner entry, where you are starting a turn while still hard on the brakes. You'd have to drive one and experience it yourself to believe it. Traction is also outstanding, as a limited slip was standard. It's really hard to believe the difference between a standard 3-series BMW and one of these. They drive completely different.

As for the little things, they are a lot better than a 911. The wipers, heating and A/C, radio, seats, minor controls, etc. are light years better than a 911. They are considerably more practical, too. The one downside is they will require more money to maintain and it's a lot harder to find a nice one, as there are a lot of them with a bunch of deferred maintenance items.

By the way, the engine has absolutely nothing to do with Cosworth. The block is descended from an old Formula 2 engine BMW built in the 1960's and the heads are essentially 2/3's of an M1 head. Also, you are also about as likely to find an EVO3 M3 here in the states as you are to run across a 911R at the local gas station. At last count, I think there were 2 in the US.

If you are serious about buying one, I will be selling one of mine this spring.

JR

[MFAFF]

Originally Posted by TerryBPP

You mean like dropping a 3.6l in place of a 2.7? . The weight difference is right around 100 lbs. Lose the A/C and get a CF hood and your golden.

But if your into originality then roll with the 4 banger.

A little.. but the weight is further forward making the moment arm that much larger and increasing the polar moment of intertia..

Yeh yeh .....all details but believe me hanging a four wheel drift in a slick shod Group A M3 racer is far more fun and games than trying to bully a nose heavy 6around the same bend.. trying to get the damn thing to turn in and having to bring it into line every damn lap whilst somebody in his Cossie MErc 2.3 or Escort Cossie is trying to get by on on the inside...

Oh the joy...

The four banger is the real scalpel.. a 6 dulled version..faster on the unimpeded open trac, but far less fun and slower to race..

On the road the difference is more a longhood with a 2.7RS engine or one with a 3.6.. the 2.7 wil be more fun and a 'better' drive and as soon as conditions are less than perfect a faster one too...

[CurtEgerer]

Originally Posted by javadog

Okay,

Where it will smoke a 911 is in the braking and handling department. It has ABS, so the wheel locking you get in a 911 on poor surfaces, or the one-wheel locking you get on uneven roads won't happen. As a result, you can hammer the brakes on any road, without any concern for what may happen. It is also perfectly balanced and is extremely responsive to either steering or throttle inputs, in a corner. With good tires, you'd be amazed at the cornering speeds you can generate. You can push one a lot harder on the street safely than you can a 911 because they are so viceless. Where they really shine is on corner entry, where you are starting a turn while still hard on the brakes. You'd have to drive one and experience it yourself to believe it. Traction is also outstanding, as a limited slip was standard. It's really hard to believe the difference between a standard 3-series BMW and one of these. They drive completely different.


JR

+1 on all that! They inspire a lot of confidence in the corners. You almost can't make a mistake .... unlike a 911. Here's mine:

[YTNUKLR]

Pretty much confirms what everybody else is saying...ok, I'm lusting again...

Who knows, maybe I should put the 911 project ('70 911E restoration) on the slow track and look for a really nice E30 M3? I have seen some E36 powered M3's, but I really like that zingy little four banger.

javadog-do PM me when you list that car for sale. I TOTALLY hear you on all the BMW deferred maintenance items...I used to have a beater E28 535i, what a b!tch of a car..so many things going wrong with it..

Curt-you have the perfect auto stable!! NOICE M3!!

[the]

Curt's M3 is uber-sweet. I looked for an M3 a few years back, unfortunately most of the ones you'll find are not like Curt's!

The biggest problem, as a whole, with the E30 M3 is that they are just getting old. As used cars, the prices of these were not super expensive (they've sold for between $8K and $15K for a long time). So a lot of them have passed through the hands of people who didn't have a lot of $$$ for maintenance, and drove the crap out of them. Even ones that have been reasonably maintained have not been *fully* maintained, things like suspension bushings, little non-essential things that stop working, etc. all add up.

A lot of the ones I looked at had really rattley valvetrains. Engine at idle sounded like a bucket of bolts. Not sure what was up with that.

"Upgrading" to a six, ugh. Fortunately, that's not all that common.

I never could find a decent one, and gave up!

[sketchers356]

Nicest BMW ever IMHO.

[YTNUKLR]

the-

yes, I quickly found that out. in all honesty, that is the one reason to buy a new car...used cars are generally worn out in some respect, probably a lot worn out.

when i was looking for an early 911, every single one has some problem, or it was $30,000 + (now maybe more like $50,000+). so, i bought a project so i can make it perfect, because there was no chance in hell of me finding the car i wanted already done.

i imagine that's the same thing with these E30 M3's...they are just getting old, and they've gotten abused and used. Same deal with my old E28--just a bunch of shot bushings, the valvetrain was all clackety (some broken springs, worn adjusters, etc.), little things...they'll kill ya

i guess then i am officially on the hunt, with the (hopefully) reasonable idea that i can find a Curt-quality M3 within a year. If I can't, well, I'll just go back to working on my 911.

[the]

Yeah. E30s are kind of in the "middle years," though. If you are looking for an early 911, they are old enough, and desirable enough, that you can find one that has been redone, rebuilt engine, trans, suspension, cosmetics, etc.

Likewise, if you are looking for a car from the late 90s or newer, they are new enough to not be worn out.

But the E30 is in the middle.

You can probably find one like Curt's, if you are willing to pay. When I was looking, I saw a ton of junk in the $12K range. I was willing to go to mid to upper teens, but that was about it. I did see a few nice ones, for $25K+. That was a few years ago, I'm sure the prices for exceptional ones are even higher now.

[RANDY P]

saw this one on LStech.com - definitely fixed the torque problem.

LS1 powered



flame away

[CurtEgerer]

'the' - +1 on your observations on the market. There are lots and lots of e30 M3s around for $10-$15,000. While some of these could be decent buys, they all come with a couple of paint jobs, a dubious rebuilt engine, a ratty interior and a long list of modifications. Since these cars made reasonable daily drivers, many were used as such and have racked up uber miles as well. If you read the e30 M3 forums there's not much discussion about keeping the cars original. Most of the talk is how to modify them. The prices have been creeping up over the past 2-3 years on the unmolested, lower mile cars and NOW is the time to get in before they go out of sight, IMO. I've been offered $25K for mine as a data point (orig paint, 60K miles).

This may be one of the only truly affordable 'homologation cars'. BMW built the M3 racecar first, then figured out how to take that racecar and make it reasonably civilized as a street car - the way it should be.

** Also, the 'rattling' noise from the engine heard on startup is no cause for alarm. These engines have forged pistons and they rattle like crazy until they warm up (usually a minute or 2). If they keep rattling after warm up though .... run!