War Death Perspectives

[azasadny]

DARISC and Shaun 84 Targa,

Thank you! I enjoy this forum and I have no doubt that most of the folks here love their country and want the best for it and us even though we may not all agree on the approach. I welcome other's perspectives and I learn something every time I read one of these threads.

When I was in Saudi Arabia, some of the best letters I received were from people who thought we shouldn't be there but they thanked me for doing my job and knew I didn't make policy.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Ironically, those that do so would be more at home in Communist China than living under The Constitution and Bill of Rights.

To paraphrase, was it Laugh In? "Here come da flames, here come da flames!"

[jamesnmlaw]

I was not a soldier so my opinion on the matter may be worth nothing. My father was a 19 year old AF Sgt. on a B29 in Korea. My father'd talk about war maybe for a minute or so every 10 years and I learned that war was a private thing for him, that war was an ugly and frightening thing and if you were in a war the war stayed with you deep inside forever and you changed. I thank God I never had to experience war (too young for Viet Nam and too old for GW1) but I wonder a lot how I would have done and how I would have changed.

I don't want anymore of our people to die in Iraq.

72 million people died in WW2 before Germany and Japan were so defeated that their people had nothing to fight with and nothing to fight for. A post-war threat to Germany and Japan was identified (USSR) and an offer was made to the Germans and the Japanese that they couldn't refuse: we'll help you be like us or they'll make you be like them. Now, I drive a German car and am using a Japanese computer.

We shocked and awed the Iraqi army into surrender. We captured the head monkeys in charge and we killed them. We put our monkeys in charge and hopefully our monkeys got the message that they have to do what we say or we'll kill them as well. But, we never defeated the Iraqi people and their will to fight and that's what we're fighting today. We haven't given the Iraqi people an offer they couldn't refuse.

Let's leave now this mess now. We can always go back later if the monkeys we put in charge start throwing poop out of the cage.

Today's confusing statistic: over 700 Allied servicemen were killed in peace-time Germany between May 8, 1945, and December 31, 1947.

[NICKG]

Iraq is already almost as many dead americans as the revolutionary war...btw fwiw

[island911]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Many of you will disagree, but I don't believe any Iraqi is worth the blood of one of our soldiers or citizens. Iraq was "broken" long before we got there and will be long after we leave. ...

I believe that is a false premise. We are not there to "save Iraqis." We are there to promote stability in the region; which in turn helps keep the machinery of the civilized world going.

The thing that gets me is the void of reasonable ideas that come from the 'anti-war' crowd. They don't, or can't extrapolate what will happen to the region if the west pulls out leaving an unstable Iraq. They want to only focus on the well intentioned myopic result of "our guys are home." But what happens to our home/ our world if pissed at the world / pissed at the ME oil Royals OBL and his ilk set the region on fire? (ala Saddam pulling out of Kuwait ) What if Iran fills the void of Iraq, and then keeps on taking more of the region?

Art, you claim the region are a bunch of "People who refuse to be civilized and insist upon living in a tribal environment will never have a peaceful country."

So is this then a good group to have so much money that they can buy what ever nukes they want?

Our troops are doing so much more than the simplistic model of events laid out by those uncomfortable with conflict.

[FOG]

Originally Posted by jamesnmlaw

Today's confusing statistic: over 700 Allied servicemen were killed in peace-time Germany between May 8, 1945, and December 31, 1947.

James,

I minored in history and couldn't (actually not enough time resources) find verifiable figures. The ones I've seen however ranged from 4-12k for the U.S. alone. The Soviets many more. The problem with statistics from WWII is how (if they were) compiled.

S/F, FOG

[kach22i]

Turkey, Iran and Syria have shown a disturbing willingness to help stabilize the area..........to their own benefit of course.

We can't seem to keep any of those countries from going in to Iraq either directly or indirectly.

Lets just let the Muslims sort out the Muslim problems. They don't want our help anyway.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by azasadny

DARISC and Shaun 84 Targa,

Thank you! I enjoy this forum and I have no doubt that most of the folks here love their country and want the best for it and us even though we may not all agree on the approach. I welcome other's perspectives and I learn something every time I read one of these threads.

When I was in Saudi Arabia, some of the best letters I received were from people who thought we shouldn't be there but they thanked me for doing my job and knew I didn't make policy.

All of you guys are great! It is heartwarming, and I truly mean it, the level of discussion and exchange that goes on in a thread like this. I consider myself fortunate to be able to bat ideas around here with some pretty darn smart folks. (Including Mule, he is a master at stirring things up)

But there are so many statements that do affect what is happening here. Does have some issues that Pi^& me off, yes. And was there a time when I would say that no GI was worth one Iraqi or other person not from our land? Probably, but now I truly cannot make it that black and white in regards to an entire nation. The political forces I can judge based upon understanding what they stand for and their methods of achieving their objectives. I could and do not concur that the "ends justify the means", every human being is accountable. But there are too many Iraqi's that just want there country back and they are sick of all of this war.

Does this apply to ALL of the power brokers here? No, I have as much faith in them as I do the political forces in our own country. I do see what the political dumbing down and the subversion of socialism does to people and I do not like it. I also do not give carte blanche to pure greed either. It is funny to me how when you look at social progressives on one end of the spectrum and ultra capitalists on the other, the two common denominators that destroy their integrity is the same, greed and power. It is here, it is at home.

SO I digress. One thing I really appreciate is all of your kind thoughts, I have shown some of the guys here what goes on in the OTF at Pelican and they were amazed that a bunch of Uber Gear Heads actually had deep discussions (LOL). And they enjoy the discussions, as do I.

DARISC, I do need to ask for the sake of understanding, what portions of what I stated do you specifically disagree? Is it the current state of affairs or my discussion of the opportunities for aiding the reconstruction and recovery? And while we are at if, I did not consider for one moment that you insulted me, challenged me, yep so here it is back at ya. I have faith that you will put it back my way, I welcome the exchange.

We need to get this war over but it means not leaving a power vacuum. This is the real challenge. From what I have seen and heard is that the State department has not ponied up the resources to get the job done. With all of the brain power in State you would think we would have moved further in the right direction. But that is just me.

Another thing, and for what it’s worth, I don't care if someone has served in uniform, but rather that they serve. I had a great discussion with a friend, Joe Wells, about this. Those that do the little unnoticed things, church, charity, Peace Corps, and all of those that choose not to take up arms as their form of service, I respect. What all of us must not tolerate is intolerance. Argument and really debating the he$$ out of an issue is healthy, but at the end of the day it comes down to respect, and you guys, each and everyone, even on your worst day, show respect. That is good. IMHO, respect is the foundation for compromise, and the art of compromise is the essence of IraqAmerica. Other regions of the world and other people are firmly fixed to the "I win you lose philosophy". Our approach in that environment is not a good fit and we can be easily manipulated, no matter how good intentioned. That is one of the things I see here is that we expect people to be "nice". Nice feels good except to the dead. The Marines here have a great saying, "no worse an enemy, no greater friend". We as a nation may need to look at that approach, as it has gained the needed truce for peace to at least have a chance.

Gotta go, things to do,

Thanks again for all of your good wishes, and back at ya'.

[Rikao4]

I just don't believe the folks there are really democratic material.
All seemed well..then Sadr AGAIN.
You have trained folks by us, dropping or giving their weapons to Sadr.
You have Iraqi's in the streets in favor of Sadr and his Army.
The Iraqi's are not worth it..not anymore !
stay safe,
Rika

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by island911

I believe that is a false premise. We are not there to "save Iraqis." We are there to promote stability in the region; which in turn helps keep the machinery of the civilized world going.

The thing that gets me is the void of reasonable ideas that come from the 'anti-war' crowd. They don't, or can't extrapolate what will happen to the region if the west pulls out leaving an unstable Iraq. They want to only focus on the well intentioned myopic result of "our guys are home." But what happens to our home/ our world if pissed at the world / pissed at the ME oil Royals OBL and his ilk set the region on fire? (ala Saddam pulling out of Kuwait ) What if Iran fills the void of Iraq, and then keeps on taking more of the region?

Art, you claim the region are a bunch of "People who refuse to be civilized and insist upon living in a tribal environment will never have a peaceful country."

So is this then a good group to have so much money that they can buy what ever nukes they want?

Our troops are doing so much more than the simplistic model of events laid out by those uncomfortable with conflict.

+1 well said. It is that complicated. This is not the first time the free world has dealt with such a dilema.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by Rikao4

I just don't believe the folks there are really democratic material.
All seemed well..then Sadr AGAIN.
You have trained folks by us, dropping or giving their weapons to Sadr.
You have Iraqi's in the streets in favor of Sadr and his Army.
The Iraqi's are not worth it..not anymore !
stay safe,
Rika

Rika,

On the surface that seem the case. But Madi is Shia and the current government of Iraq is Shia as well. The Shia are (IMHO) attempting to quell the radicals in their own ranks. This IMHO an indicator that Shia as well as Sunni desire an independent Iraq. Also, the radical Shia Iranians have their bloody hands in this as well. Basra has had plenty of time to reinforce Basra. This has been caused buy political pressure in the UK to pull out. Just imagine what would happen if we just cut out?

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Danimal16;3864764[COLOR=black

DARISC, I do need to ask for the sake of understanding, what portions of what I stated do you specifically disagree? Is it the current state of affairs or my discussion of the opportunities for aiding the reconstruction and recovery? And while we are at if, I did not consider for one moment that you insulted me, challenged me, yep so here it is back at ya. I have faith that you will put it back my way, I welcome the exchange.[/COLOR]

We need to get this war over but it means not leaving a power vacuum. This is the real challenge. From what I have seen and heard is that the State department has not ponied up the resources to get the job done. With all of the brain power in State you would think we would have moved further in the right direction. But that is just me.

Hi Dan,

Glad to hear back from you. Your post was excellent, in all respects and I'm glad you are questioning me on my admittedly blunt response to your first post.

Where I differ with what you believe, regarding the below passage from that post,

"One thing I have a problem with is after the decision is made, I have a real intolerance of those that act like a bunch of spoiled brats and publicly aid and comfort our enemy once troops have been committed. Protesting the war in this manner emboldens our enemies and gets our kids killed, period, no doubt about it. However, that does not mean that I don't say there should be decent, but in the form of political workings that are not so subversive."

is your statement about "those that act like a bunch of spoiled brats and publicly aid and comfort our enemy once troops have been committed."

First off, you say "not so subversive" What degree of subversiveness would you find acceptable?

When I was in service during the Viet Nam War, the troops had nowhere near the access to information that today's troops have (before the internet), but we did receive enough to form opinions about the war we were directly involved in. Those opinions varied from pro to con and were the basis for many heated discussions amongst the troops.

Those who felt we shouldn't be there were at first very much in the minority and suffered the slings and arrows of the majority who felt we should be. Regardless, everyone did what they had taken an oath to do and did it well, irrespective of their political beliefs or opinions on foreign policy.

Over time the balance changed as more and more came to see the futility of what we we were doing - but we continued to perform because we were U.S. military and regardless of why we were there, we were all proud of that!

Yes there were those who were incensed to learn of Jane Fonda's escapades in N. Viet Nam and cried "she's aiding and abetting the enemy!" And there were those as well who, equally discouraged, moaned "Oh, man, more *****'s gonna hit the fan now!" Indeed her performance was controversial, but did not stem from her being "un-American' (as so many to this day still think it was), but I don't think it can be proven that her acts gave the enemy any more courage or will to fight than they already had; I know they welcomed her presence but they were already very well informed as to the degree the unrest in the U.S. had risen to.

Yes, the right to descent is at the very core of our beliefs in our country. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, depending on which side of a contentious issue one happens to find one's self, censorship is, by the very definition of what makes this country so great, ruled out and we must suffer those who use that right in, what appears to some to be, an outrageous way. So, love her or hate her, Jane Fonda wasn't instrumental in affecting the outcome of the war at all.

What you guys are doing in terms of helping the Iraqi's rebuild their infrastructure is as American (and truly wonderful) as it gets and it's a shame that our "news" doesn't report on it as they should be doing (no money in it for them, I guess).

So...yes, I hate war; who in their right mind doesn't? But I am no pacifist. I am simply anti - THIS - war. And no, we cannot leave a power vacuum. How we as a nation can bring it to an end is a grim conundrum.

Unfortunately, amongst the candidates for our next CIC, there is no deus ex machina.

Stay safe,

David

Geez, did you have to go and encourage Mule?

[Rikao4]

I don't see a stable Iraq or region in my lifetime..
good genes here, I just need the luck to go with.

Dan, do you serve with Iraqi soldiers..
do you trust them further than you can shoot...
And while I trust my Lab. to run free,
the Rott's. stay on the leash,
It seem's Iraqi's do best on a spiked choke collar .
Rika

[FOG]

A different perspective.

January 04 when the USMC took the lost Anbar province the directions given by those we replaced that is that the majority of the patrols were to be out in the desert and to give the locals three weeks notice before going into any town/village on any “patrol”.

This “guidance didn’t set too well and attempts were made to work with the locals. Most here know that Fallujah happened. April 04 we approached the local sheiks. Of forty who wanted to play ball 22 survived. This initiative was not looked upon favorably at the time by either U.S. or Iraqi higher.

I am no CA by trade, my job was to get these sheiks to a destination for meetings in safer circumstances. All the sheiks that showed up made it to the meeting and back to Anbar. The most memorable part was upon arrival at the meeting destination relaxing with an awful “Cuban” cigar, some coffee and conversations with the sheiks. The gist was both sides knew that more blood would flow and that they would have to stand on their own and both his people and mine (he meant USMC) would have to fight our central governments to make the changes at the local levels first and present them as fait accompli.

I guess my ramblings are along the lines of WTF? Our country has had a representative democracy for a long time and has had that time to get use to it’s form. Expecting Iraqis to have a homogenous view of things when we in the U.S do not at best borders on lunacy. If people here do not or are unwilling to understand that lots (percentage unknowable) of Iraqis want some form of democracy and a stable government and are working for it from the bottom up despite the central government then they are missing largest part of what is going on. What part of making the changes at local levels despite the central government’s interference is not compatible with the U.S. ethos?

Watching the apathy of voting in this country and then watch the Iraqis vote under gunfire, RPGs, and mortars is humbling in my opinion. Others have called the notion maudlin, simplistic and naïve because the result wasn’t an instant Western European style democracy.

S/F, FOG

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by island911

The thing that gets me is the void of reasonable ideas that come from the 'anti-war' crowd.

What do you see as reasonable ideas from the "pro-war" crowd? Is there a void there also?

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by FOG

I guess my ramblings are along the lines of WTF? Our country has had a representative democracy for a long time and has had that time to get use to it’s form. Expecting Iraqis to have a homogenous view of things when we in the U.S do not at best borders on lunacy.

You are dead right, Fog. It wasn't until, when? that women even had the right to vote in this country. How long were blacks riding in the back of the bus? It's been a long time comin' to the point we are now at - and we have further to go.

What sticks in a lot of people's craw is that they bought the misbegotten notion that the Iraqis would throw flowers at our feet, throw us a big party with hugs all 'round and we would return home with a smile of satisfaction on our face.

Didn't work out that way. The masses here didn't give much thought to what a huge task nation building is, or our,dubious, expertise in that area, believing that the Iraqi's were already an industrious, hard working, modern culture who would immediately begin taking their place in the ME as a progressive, democratic country.

Didn't work out that way. Now it seems that McCain's statement that we may be in Iraq for maybe the next hundred years helping the Iraqis emulate what we did here is not that far fetched, or in fact, unreasonable.

The fact is that most people here aren't in agreement with that notion and want another solution that will free us from that responsibility that we so stupidly commited ourselves to.

As I said in my response to Dan, we've created a grim conundrum.

[Danimal16]

DARISC, FOG, RIKA,

I have got to get some rack time. Guys you are really keying on the jist of this. I am going to need some time to contribute a response that is deserving. GOOOOD stuff.

You are all patriots! Its a beautiful thing.

Out here

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by Danimal16

I have got to get some rack time.

Which head wears your helmet when you hit the rack?

[Rikao4]

May you sleep in your own bed soon ,
you need anything ?
Rika

[Hard-Deck]

The recent book, "Engame" by Thomas McInerney spells out the issues most of you are needing information/answers on.

Here's the key: Think like a General, not a politician and you'll understand Iraq.