War Death Perspectives

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by island911

No, I think that you just did disrespect him. ..quite intentionally, I will add. (too many posts -- you don't have the anonymity that you used to.)

If to disagree with him is, in your eyes, disrespectful, yes I did. In my eyes, to disagree with someone is in no way disrespectful. I think Danimal will tell me if he thinks I've disrespected him and his is the only opinion that really matters to me (strikes me as the kind of guy one can discuss things intelligently with).

Sorry Island, I don't understand your comment about anonymity (I've never really given much thought to anonymity). As far as too many posts, I have less than half of what it says I have - Wayne fixed a glitch in my account on his server awhile back and my post count doubled (like, does it matter as a status thing or something?).

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by island911

Too many here have met 'fintstone' ... if his words don't obviously paint the picture of who he is (or not) you could just ask around.

Well I haven't met him and as far as asking around, I've asked him directly on several occasions to fill me in, which he hasn't. His words paint a picture of someone I have differences with but I know nothing about the man other than that.

[island911]

DAR, is "playing coy'" all you've got? That seems to be your pattern. Throw something out, and then shrug and say "wha ..?"

Maybe you should twist that theme up a bit; respond with "me no speek engrish so gud. me no follow" --just to be different.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Why shouldn't a 22 year old, 90 lb weaking be able to express their opinion here? Is having an uncle that served in WW2 some sort of badge of honor?

Danimal's a Seabee, my uncle was a Seabee; just a conversational comment. Badge of honor? For my uncle and Danimal perhaps - definitely not for me!

...and are you speaking for Webb now too?

Oh, not at all.

Could you please point out where he has inquired as to my military experience. I must have missed that post.

My error; he was inquiring about other qualifications. I'm asking what you asked him, "Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on your “military education” before you post here. Put up or shut up."

..

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by DARISC

...My error; he was inquiring about other qualifications. I'm asking what you asked him, "Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on your “military education” before you post here. Put up or shut up.".

Actually, you are still in error (Hillary type "misspeak"). He did not inquire about my qualifications. He was asking the qualifications of another poster. I was just turning the tables on him by asking him a parallel question. Try reading other folk's posts a bit more carefully before attempting to (mis)quote them.

I don't know why it really makes a difference, but I do have a little experience. I've served over 31 years in the military, almost 26 active...the rest reserve. I have around 5 years as a DoD civilian supervising many active duty military. Like most folks affiliated with the military...it is best not to post too many personal details...especially during wartime...

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by island911

DAR, is "playing coy'" all you've got? That seems to be your pattern. Throw something out, and then shrug and say "wha ..?"

Maybe you should twist that theme up a bit; respond with "me no speek engrish so gud. me no follow" --just to be different.

Just to be absolutely sure, I looked up coy. If you find me "Annoyingly unwilling to make a commitment", it could be because of my refusal to view things strictly in black and white and express my thoughts in one-liners (leaves no room for discussion and, apparently unlike a lot of political posters here, there are many things I ponder, read about and am unsure of).

If it's not clear (from my too many posts) what my commited beliefs are, generally, regarding the state of the world and our place in it, I've not been communicating very well at all......oh well .

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Actually, you are still in error (Hillary type "misspeak").

Yes I am (Hillary type "misspeak' - cute, but no, I admittedly made a mistake.)

He did not inquire about my qualifications. He was asking the qualifications of another poster. I was just turning the tables on him by asking him a parallel question. Try reading other folk's posts a bit more carefully before attempting to (mis)quote them.

I understand and will try to do that. Ever make an obvious mistake and admit to it without embarrasment?

I don't know why it really makes a difference, but I do have a little experience. I've served over 31 years in the military, almost 26 active...the rest reserve. I have around 5 years as a DoD civilian supervising many active duty military. Like most folks affiliated with the military...it is best not to post too many personal details...especially during wartime...

That helps fill in the picture. And clarifies for me the perspective you have. Do you feel disrespected by me because my perspective is from a different vantage point than yours?

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[azasadny]

Many of you will disagree, but I don't believe any Iraqi is worth the blood of one of our soldiers or citizens. Iraq was "broken" long before we got there and will be long after we leave. People who refuse to be civilized and insist upon living in a tribal environment will never have a peaceful country. I'm sickened by the loss of so many lives for people who have no respect for human lives or sacrifices... Just my .02 worth...

[Halm]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Many of you will disagree, but I don't believe any Iraqi is worth the blood of one of our soldiers or citizens. Iraq was "broken" long before we got there and will be long after we leave. People who refuse to be civilized and insist upon living in a tribal environment will never have a peaceful country. I'm sickened by the loss of so many lives for people who have no respect for human lives or sacrifices... Just my .02 worth...

Art, I would be surprised if there is anyone that disagrees with your statement.

Too often the discussion is about how we got there. That is history and can't be changed. What we need is a thoughtful, thorough discussion of how we get out. There was no free oil for going in, and there is no free lunch for coming out. There are serious consequences no matter what we do. They need to be vetted.

[KFC911]

What Hal said...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Many of you will disagree, but I don't believe any Iraqi is worth the blood of one of our soldiers or citizens. Iraq was "broken" long before we got there and will be long after we leave. People who refuse to be civilized and insist upon living in a tribal environment will never have a peaceful country. I'm sickened by the loss of so many lives for people who have no respect for human lives or sacrifices... Just my .02 worth...

I agree Art, but I think there are a great number here on the board who would take issue with your statement.

The issue at hand now is that the surge was designed to buy time for the Iraqi government to get its act together and make the tough decisions necessary to lead their country.

It is clear to me now that the Iraqi government has a vested interest(s) in keeping factions within Iraq at odds with each other because it is both weak and corrupt. In short, they are just playing us. It's focus on strengthening ties with Iran is also troubling. It's a sad statement that Cheney must secretly fly in under cover of night and be extremely limited in his movements while Ahmadinejad is treated like royalty and walks freely among the people, the country.

no good can come of this.

[kach22i]

Maybe someone like Art can clear up a question I have.

How can a soldier trained to kill the enemy turn a 180 and be expected to fight and die for that same country?

[Halm]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I agree Art, but I think there are a great number here on the board who would take issue with your statement.

Shawn, what part of Art's statement do you think "a great number here on the board" take issue? Are you suggesting that there are some that take delight in the death of our soldiers?

[M.D. Holloway]

And sense when did the average joe or for that matter any of us truly are able to understand international politics? Unless you are in the know wioth the state department you are at the mercy of the media. even if you are in the mix you are only provided with a portion of the scene.

I am not one to throw a bunch of respect at the governing powers - Gawd only knows we have got'n oursleves into more shyt in the past 120 years but looking at the way all other regions have faired - Europe, Asia, South America; I would have to say we haven't done too badly for a nation that is only really 140 years old united.

It sure would be nice if one of our ever so talented candidates would give us an indication that they are actually going to try to end all the wars across the world. Thos ewho like Obama and Billary - think they got the chops? keep dreaming. Sad thing is, John McCan doesn't either.

We are so much better than that - I am tired of settling...

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Halm

Shawn, what part of Art's statement do you think "a great number here on the board" take issue? Are you suggesting that there are some that take delight in the death of our soldiers?

I think I read it too fast Hal. There are many here who think "any Iraqi is worth the blood of one of our soldiers or citizens."

There are many here who think it's worth it, no matter what.

Sorry for the confusing post.

[Halm]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I think I read it too fast Hal. There are many here who think "any Iraqi is worth the blood of one of our soldiers or citizens."

There are many here who think it's worth it, no matter what.

Sorry for the confusing post.

LOL, NP. Glad to see we are on the same page on that point.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Iraq was "broken" long before we got there and will be long after we leave....

That's historical fact. And, while we went into Afghanistan for all the right reasons, with international support, we've blunderingly made an unconscionable mess of things there as well. Kabul notwithstanding, the Afghani govt. buildings in the cities are occupied not by politicians the citizens can trust and rely on, but rather thugs and drug lords that they are terrified of, unwittingly put there provisionally by our govt. - not being "un-American" here, just check it out for yourself. The Taliban is once again on the rise and the tribal warlords are still in control of that country if you look beyond Karzai's small bastion of democratic govt. and those warlords want us out of Afghanistan every bit as much as they wanted the Russians out.

When we are forced to redouble our efforts there, Afghanistan will again be in the spotlight and it will be painfully apparent that we have a perhaps an even more serious problem there than we have in Iraq.

I'm sickened by the loss of so many lives for people who have no respect for human lives or sacrifices...

And I as well; it's the only reason I can't refrain from posting on threads here which praise our military forays, draped in patriotic banners proclaiming "My country, right or wrong" (I recall you mentioned that old bumper sticker in one of your earlier posts).

Originally Posted by Halm

Art, I would be surprised if there is anyone that disagrees with your statement.

Too often the discussion is about how we got there. That is history and can't be changed. What we need is a thoughtful, thorough discussion of how we get out. There was no free oil for going in, and there is no free lunch for coming out. There are serious consequences no matter what we do. They need to be vetted.

Precisely.

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

The issue at hand now is that the surge was designed to buy time for the Iraqi government to get its act together and make the tough decisions necessary to lead their country.

It is clear to me now that the Iraqi government has a vested interest(s) in keeping factions within Iraq at odds with each other because it is both weak and corrupt. In short, they are just playing us. It's focus on strengthening ties with Iran is also troubling. It's a sad statement that Cheney must secretly fly in under cover of night and be extremely limited in his movements while Ahmadinejad is treated like royalty and walks freely among the people, the country.

no good can come of this.

Well said.....you commie liberal pinko socialist pig!

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[azasadny]

My father and I just talked about this. Since when does the fact that someone NOT support the war make them unpatriotic? My dad is "old school" and he doesn't question authority and I think the only reason he accepts my opinion is that I'm a veteran of Desert Storm. No matter what your opinion of the war, or any war, for that matter, your "patriotism" shouldn't be called into question. Supporting the troops isn't the same thing as accepting the government's decision to go wage war in Iraq or anywhere else.

[DARISC]

Originally Posted by azasadny

My father and I just talked about this. Since when does the fact that someone NOT support the war make them unpatriotic? My dad is "old school" and he doesn't question authority and I think the only reason he accepts my opinion is that I'm a veteran of Desert Storm. No matter what your opinion of the war, or any war, for that matter, your "patriotism" shouldn't be called into question. Supporting the troops isn't the same thing as accepting the government's decision to go wage war in Iraq or anywhere else.

Excellent post.

Edit: Thanks for your service in Desert Storm, Art. And thanks to all our troops in harms way, wherever you are.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by azasadny

Since when does the fact that someone NOT support the war make them unpatriotic?

Excellent post Art.

To answer your question: when there is political and/or economic gain in wrapping yourself in the Flag and exploiting your new garment. Good news is all you really need to be patriotic is a Chinese made, low-lead content American flag lapel pin.

Ironically, those that do so would be more at home in Communist China than living under The Constitution and Bill of Rights.