Keeping the pressure on

[john70t]

Why would the Bushies care what other people buy?

-First, the additional cost is like what, a daily coffe for a year, or a premium superbowl ticket?
-Second, when your talking vehicle selection it's always emotion, not reason, in sales. People will spend $10K more for a "tougher" looking vehicle that is completely impractical for their lifestyle, but they think their friends will respect more.
-Third, this thing called "capitalism" is supposed to have "consumer choice" with it.
-Fourth, technowlogical baby steps. Mabye 2010 models will have 5KW solar arrays that fold out to power houses.

The only downside to the Prius is that it only gets 45-55mpg.

[jyl]

Most of the Prius nay-sayers here know little about the car. That is obvious from the content of their posts. They treat it as a symbol of "green-ness" not as a car on its merits. I admit, there are some smug, irritating Prius drivers - but so what, you don't have to be one.

As you saw, when you actually drive the car, you find it is a comfortable, functional, reasonably roomy car, with Toyota quality and reliability, that uses clever engineering to get pretty darn good gas mileage in a way that is transparent to the driver.

Compared to the SUV it replaced (Range Rover), at current gas prices the Prius is saving us nearly $5,000 per year. Sounds like the savings would be higher for you, 60K miles/year is 3X our average.

If you are thinking about getting one, FYI:
- Best MPG is with warm engine at moderate speeds (45-ish MPH) in rural or suburban areas without a lot of hills, or on freeway at 60-65 MPH. Climbing lots of hills, stoplight gran prix, 80 MPH on freeway, or 2 mile trips with cold engine, is going to hurt MPG significantly, could even get down to low 40s MPG. Combining 2-4 of these, plus snow tires and freezing temps, can get you down to high 30s MPG. (Just to calibrate your expectations.)
- MPG tends to improve during the first year, supposedly from Prius breaking in but I think also from driver learning the tricks.
- MPG is sensitive to wheels and tires. "Upgrades" to 17" wheels and wide/sticky tires can cost 3-4 MPG, due to higher weight and higher rolling resistance.
- Snow tires also hurt MPG. Overfilling engine oil also hurts. Higher tire pressures helps, so does partially blocking the grille and/or using block heater in winter.
- Over the full year, we are now getting avg 42 MPG in town on the 10% ethanol that is sold here (equates to about 43-44 MPG on 100% gasoline), as in high-30s MPG in winter and mid-40s MPG in summer. We have the short trips and hills problem, and wifey likes to accelerate up to red lights, like she can intimidate them into turning green or something.
- Highest I've ever gotten is mid-high 60s MPG on freeway averaging 55 MPH. Worst ever is 35-ish MPG in 30 F temps doing repeated short trips on cold engine, climbing hills, and wearing snow tires.

Originally Posted by speedracing944

Ok I have been a Prius skeptic ever since they came out. Last Thursday as a joke my wife and I went to go look at one at the dealership. I went from laughing to "holy crap" in a matter of 1.5 hours. The car is pretty big on the inside for a car that small. I am 6' 3" and can sit in the back seat with the front seat all the way back and I still had 2 inches in front of my knees. The car drove nice and the trip computer showed 55MPG for our mixed 10 mile drive. Before I get reamed we drive about 60,000 miles a year and the fuel savings would be huge. The experience has changed my opinion on the car.

Speedy

[jyl]

No, because your simpler, lighter car still runs its engine at all times.

The biggest fuel savings of a hybrid car is that the gas engine is switched off at stop lights, in slow traffic, when coasting, etc. In effect, the hybrid doesn't waste fuel idling its gas engine (usually). The gas engine turns on when your foot is in the throttle, and turns off when you lift.

Regenerating electricity during braking is nice too, but that is secondary.

Originally Posted by legion

I don't believe that expensive, complicated technology with a limited lifespan is the answer.

Simply making cars lighter would provide all of the benefits with increased reliability and less cost.

Agreed that a smaller, lighter Prius with lots of carbon fibre and aluminium, running a diesel/electric hybrid would get better mileage than the current one. And that a plug-in Prius will get better mileage yet. Hopefully, these are coming someday.

[Mule]

When everybody starts plugging in, where does the extra electrical power come from?

[jyl]

Not from oil, for a start.

Originally Posted by Mule

When everybody starts plugging in, where does the extra electrical power come from?

[Mule]

Not from nuclear either. You lefties hate that. Where then?

[sammyg2]

Plus is makes your farts smell good

[sammyg2]

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[jyl]

Grid power, whatever the source is in your state.

Fixed electricity generation is better than burning gasoline in cars, for various reasons. More efficient. Can tie in renewable sources (wind, hydro, solar, biomass, etc) as well as nuclear, coal, nat gas, etc. Price less volatile than oil.

Plug-in cars will usually be recharged during off-peak hours (evening/night), helps smooth out power demand.

And operating a car from grid electricity is much cheaper than fueling with gasoline at current prices.

How much this matters will depend on individual driving pattern. For us, if a plug-in hybrid (possibly the 2010 or 2011 Prius) had a 10 to 20 mile electric range, we'd hardly even be running on gasoline. Someone with a longer daily drive would be running on gasoline more of the time, and would get less benefit from the plug-in feature.

I'm a believer in nuclear power, personally. France gets most of its grid power from nuclear, works well for them.

Originally Posted by Mule

Not from nuclear either. You lefties hate that. Where then?

[legion]

Originally Posted by jyl

No, because your simpler, lighter car still runs its engine at all times.

The biggest fuel savings of a hybrid car is that the gas engine is switched off at stop lights, in slow traffic, when coasting, etc. In effect, the hybrid doesn't waste fuel idling its gas engine (usually). The gas engine turns on when your foot is in the throttle, and turns off when you lift.

Regenerating electricity during braking is nice too, but that is secondary.



Agreed that a smaller, lighter Prius with lots of carbon fibre and aluminium, running a diesel/electric hybrid would get better mileage than the current one. And that a plug-in Prius will get better mileage yet. Hopefully, these are coming someday.

You are completely missing the point. A hybrid is an expensive, overcomplicated solution to a simple problem. There were cars on the market in the 80's that got better gas mileage than a Prius that didn't need the electric motor, or the heavy battery array (that will eventually fail--either rendering the hybrid system inoperative or costing thousands of dollars to replace). Just because a Prius gets better gas mileage with a lot of bells and whistles does not mean that it is the best approach. Simply cutting weight from most cars would yield the same results without the reliance on an expensive, unreliable (in the long-term) technology.

[john70t]

Legion +1. Which is why car standards have to get lighter on the average, or special training/licencing/taxing will be necessary for the 7,500lb behemoths(do you still like that idea?).
Otherwise the insurance company lobbys will slam down the kaibosh hammer. But then again, manditory auto insurance is socialism, pure and simple.

There are reasons why Americans can't import Japanese and European microcars which can park in motorcycle zones and get 50mpg: DOT saftey standards(which often don't make sense), DOT forcing the addition of traction control, gizmos, and eventually personal tracking devices, and of course big oil protectionism.

The mentality of the average consumer has been brainwashed into a monster-truck/me-first/live for today attitude. But thankfully, Mr. big-oil shieky Bush is changing that quickly

[sammyg2]

15 air bags, crumple zones, DOT bumpers and regulations, side impact teasting, frontal impact testing, insurance ratings, it all adds up to one thing:
heavier, less efficient, more expensive cars.

the ralph naders in this world (morons the whole lot) decided that they need to save us from ourselves. they decided that they needed to make laws so that the darwin award winners would be able to survive no matter how stupid they drive.

I've been driving for a long time and never smashed up a car. I seriously doubt I ever will. If all that extra expensive heavy safety crap was optional I would not pay for it as I don't need it.
Let the darwin award winners pay for it, they're too stupid to operate a vehicle without smashing it. Or just let them take themsleves out of the gene pool. Either way works for me.

[legion]

I don't understand the logic behind mandating six airbags, crumple zones, bumpers, traction control, etc. when we allow motorcycles on the road. (And I'm not saying to get rid of motorcycles.)

[Aerkuld]

Odd, we were having a discussion at work the other day which becomes relevant here.

We were discussing fast cars in the late 80's. Back then we considered a car with upwards of 200bhp to be a very fast car. The particular car we were talking about was the Ford Sierra Cosworth. I don't know if this will mean anything to anyone on this side of the pond, but it was thought of as a road going missile back in it's day. I was shocked to find it was only rated at just over 200bhp. But then I thought about the 911 back then, 220bhp at best and it was practically considered untouchable by most things on the road. Now put that into perspective with todays cars. You could go out and buy a minivan off just about any car lot with that much power. If you want to look at a super sedan then think about the AMG Mercedes with 800bhp or whatever it has. That's equivalent to a late 80's non-turbo F1 car for goodness sake!

So the relevant part. What is going to happen in another 20 years? Will we be seeing the power output of the average family car two times or four times higher than it is today? We thought that the days of the horsepower race are numbered and we are probably near the peak of outright horsepower. The way ahead for the high performance sports car is backwards. Back to light weight, small capacity engines, possibly turbo charged to give the power when it's needed and fuel economy when it isn't. The coming generation of sports cars will probably be all about efficiency. It isn't a stretch of the imagination to see this as a possibility, and not just for sportscars either. If fuel prices stay high then is the general consumer going to care about Sat Nav, thick padded leather seats, DVD entertainment systems, 1500 watt stereos, and 27 cup holders if it puts a drain on fuel consumption, or will they want transport that gives the 40mpg?

Hopefully this might see Porsche return to their roots; lightweight, high performance sports cars with relatively small engines, not that they are far from the mark with some of their current models.

[jyl]

First, name some of these '80s cars.

You'll find they were tiny tinboxes cars that most people would not buy today. Honda Civic CRX, Geo Metro XFi, Ford Ka 3-cyl, Isuzu iMark, VW Rabbit diesel, etc. I doubt you would buy one. People want safety for when the 2-ton SUV nails you, they want AC - satnav - leather - comfort, they want room for four or five, etc.

Perhaps a market will develop for stripped-down micro-cars, that would be fine, but I don't think the bulk of Americans are going to move from 4x4 Durangos to Smart Cars that quickly.

Second, what does "unreliable in the long run" mean?

The Prius is one of the most reliable cars out there. Gen 1 Priuses (from 2001) are still on the road with 150K+ miles delivering 50 MPG, like my dad's car. A small percentage are needing battery replacements, but after 8 years and 150K miles is a 5% chance of needing a $3-4K repair all that shocking?

Agreed, these aren't like old Beetles, 2CVs, and Land Rovers that are still running 40 years on. But most of today's cars won't be running in 20 years, not even 15 years. For me, 5+ years and 100K+ miles is "long run" enough.

Bottomline, the Prius cost similar to what any other new car (that we'd have wanted) would have, delivers avg 42-ish MPG in the city and avg 50-55 MPG highway, is totally reliable, and I could sell it today for nearly what it cost new. Not a bad deal, really.

Originally Posted by legion

You are completely missing the point. A hybrid is an expensive, overcomplicated solution to a simple problem. There were cars on the market in the 80's that got better gas mileage than a Prius that didn't need the electric motor, or the heavy battery array (that will eventually fail--either rendering the hybrid system inoperative or costing thousands of dollars to replace). Just because a Prius gets better gas mileage with a lot of bells and whistles does not mean that it is the best approach. Simply cutting weight from most cars would yield the same results without the reliance on an expensive, unreliable (in the long-term) technology.

[island911]

So, you see the 80's VW as a "tiny tinbox" . . .yet the Prius is . . what then?

I think that Chris' point still stands. --the Prius is an overly complicated tiny tin box.

If you want Prius beating economy, in something bigger, go for the BMW 520d.

http://www.technoride.com/2008/03/bmw_diesel_beats_prius_in_econ.php (keeping the pressure on )

[m21sniper]

Haha, i love the way Wayne- who built solar powered electric cars and raced them for MIT, even winning some trophies- says they're a gimmick, but how Jyl views them as anything but.

Gotta go with the MIT guy on this one. Rocket scientists are rarely wrong.

[911boost]

Will the solar panels deflect bullets? 'Cause the next time I get stuck behind one of those asshats in their Prius drving between 50-70 mph based on whether they are going up hill or downhill so they maximize thier mpg, I'm going to start shooting.

Bill

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by island911

So, you see the 80's VW as a "tiny tinbox" . . .yet the Prius is . . what then?

I think that Chris' point still stands. --the Prius is an overly complicated tiny tin box.

If you want Prius beating economy, in something bigger, go for the BMW 520d.

http://www.technoride.com/2008/03/bmw_diesel_beats_prius_in_econ.php (keeping the pressure on )

The Prius is actually a big car. The interior room could probably be compared to a late 60's ford 4 door galaxy.

[jyl]

Don't be confused about the difference between a solar-powered car and a gas/electric hybrid.

And don't be confused about the difference between a Geo Metro and a car that you'd actually want to own. (I notice I haven't heard that you're driving a Metro.)

Well, be confused if you like. I don't really care. If it makes people feel better about their $100 fill-ups, they can be as confused as they want . . .

For me, in the real-world, the car gets up to 2X better MPG as the other cars we considered buying, for a similar purchase price, and to date almost zero depreciation and utter reliability.

If its a gimmick, give me more like it.

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Haha, i love the way Wayne- who built solar powered electric cars and raced them for MIT, even winning some trophies- says they're a gimmick, but how Jyl views them as anything but.

Gotta go with the MIT guy on this one. Rocket scientists are rarely wrong.