Gun Advice

[idontknow]

Did you say something?

[Rick Lee]

I haven't read this whole thread, but will toss in my $.02, as I regularly carry a 1911 and have owned a double-stacked ParaOrdnance 1911. BTW, I'm almost positive Para makes a double-action 1911.

Superman, as much as I don't want to help you, I'll offer some honest advice. 1911's are awesome, classic, reliable, thoroughly American guns. But do NOT get one as your first CCW gun. Unless you buy a race gun, 1911's take a lot of getting used to and many of the more affordable ones are not nearly as accurate out of the box as many of the cheaper, plastic guns. 1911's are like Porsches, in that you can bankrupt yourself modifying them and not get anything close to your money back when you sell. For CCW, you need a gun that you can afford to lose (you will lose it if you ever have to use it), but one that you can still trust your life to. 1911's are also only safe if carried cocked and locked or with no round in the pipe. This is something you always have to think about as a CCW'er. Plenty of other calibers have excellent stopping power. Check out the ballistics on .357SIG. I can fit 13 rounds of it in my SIG P229 and it's some serious stopping power.

Get a SIG, Glock or Springfield XD for CCW and a 1911 for fun. When you're really comfortable with the 1911, revisit whether you want to use it for CCW.

[Jeff Higgins]

Interesting assessment of the 1911, Rick. I hate to say it, but it sounds like you have bought into some of the latest Madison Avenue hype concerning the 1911. Heavily modified, decked out 1911's seem to be all the rage these days, with everybody and their brother offering their own examples. Some are damned expensive. Some are over the top pimped out. The bling seems to impress, though, especially among those who think they can make up for a lack of shooting skill with a fancy gun. Not saying that's you, but I do see a lot of that. Guys who spend a fortune on every latest bell and whistle and still can't shoot the damn thing. They would have been better off spending that money on ammo and range time.

As a point of reference, I have a mil spec Springfield that I purchased new in about 1985 for the princely sum of $380. It will out shoot the vast majority of "race guns" I have ever seen, from both an accuracy and reliability standpoint. It's easy to shoot, easy to maintain, and took no more "getting used to" than any other gun.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 1911 as a first centerfire handgun, or as a first concealed carry gun. Condition one carry seems to scare a lot of folks, and it really should not. With a proper holster, designed for such carry, it will never be a problem. In this "cocked and locked" condition, there is far less to do than on may autos to bring it to action, and the trigger pull remains constant for every shot. Both are exceedingly important under duress. It's a wonderfully simple auto loader to use and to learn.

[Rick Lee]

Jeff, I got my Mil-Spec Springfield two years ago for $275 delivered. I'm not knocking 1911's at all. It's just that they're not good first guns. I think the first gun I ever shot was my dad's Commander. I've owned a Commander, a ParaOrdnance P12 and two full-size Springfields. I have a lot of miles with 1911's and that's why I like to carry them. I don't need a race gun to shoot well. But I can't see a noobie shooting a 1911 well enough to use as a primary CCW gun.

[KFC911]

I'm not sure Supe is looking for a CCW gun (and that certainly changes the criteria), but I'm sure he'll chime back in just so I don't get the last word in . I purchased my Combat Commander back when I was twenty, and don't see any problem with a 1911 being one's first imo (although it wasn't for me).

[Jeff Higgins]

This is why I love discussing firearms, Rick. We can agree to disagree. I've spent many a night around campfires, in my basement man-cave, and at buddies' places having discussions just like this. There is no "right" answer that suits all of us, and shooters tend to be an opinionated lot.

It boils down to what an individual likes and is comfortable with. Our standard advice is always to try some out and see. If a guy likes the 1911, and is comfortable with it, there is no reason not to get one as a first gun. He may not like it - many people do not. It will be up to Supe in the end.

How well does a primary CCW gun have to shoot? If the guy is far enough away to where accuracy counts, I think we would have a hard time convincing a jury we were "justified". Hell, in many defensive situations, the weak hand is pushing the bad guy off to get enough room to shoot him. Accuracy isn't a big deal - reliability is everything. Even the most crapped out old surplus 1911 is accurate enough for defensive use. If it will stay on a basketball at 25 yards, it's good enough. Any newly manufactured example, from a reputable manufacturer, will certainly be accurate enough. And reliable enough.

[HardDrive]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

If it will stay on a basketball at 25 yards, it's good enough.

Those basketballs are a menace.

I missed the whole 'stopping power' discussion, as I was in the Michigan woods attempting to put some 'stopping power' on a deer. No dice. But my dad got a nice 7 point. Shot with a .308 at a high angle down through heart/lungs. It ran 100 yards with catastrophic damage to its vital organs.

My great uncle Sulo ( A Finnlander, ya eh?) had a friend I met. They had fought in Bastogne together. The guy had a german bullet slice his stomach wide open so that his guts fell out on the ground. My uncle literally pushed his guts back in, and made the guy get up and run to a shelter. He lived.

Without damage to the centeral nervous system, the attackers reaction to being shot will be somewhat determined by their mental state. That being said, anyone who has shot at a indoor range knows that the concusion from a larger caliber weapons is defintely a deterent. Having someone shoot a .44 next to you not fun. Your bodys automatic response is to get the hell away from it.

[onewhippedpuppy]

A Mil-Spec 1911 was my first gun. I shot a variety of modern double-action guns and simply felt most comfortable with the 1911. I was also much more accurate. To each his own.

[Superman]

Thanks, guys. I was leaving this thread alone out of pity. KC really wants to have the last word. I don't like his chances, given my experience with this fine community of helpful advice-givers, but wanted him to have a fighting chance.

I'm glad for the additional input.

I really do like the .45 ACP. I have fired other guns and I like this one. I have the feeling I can shoot this gun better than most others.

This will be my first-ever handgun. As I mentioned earlier, I have a fair bit of experience with rifles, and some shotgun experience. So....I'm hardly a newbie with regard to firearms but I certainly am starting from scratch with handguns. I'm learning, and I'm a fast learner.

No tool is an "all purpose" tool. But again, this will be my only gun for a while. I have applied for a CCW, which should be issued in the next couple of weeks. I will, at times, carry this gun on my person. Not often, but it will happen. Mostly, the gun will live in my home. I fully intend to shoot the piss out of this gun at the range. I intend to become second-nature comfortable with it.

I may at some point have the gun worked by a gunsmith, but we shall see. If I do, the purpose will be purely functional. A reflection of my motoring approach as well. I appreciate the aesthetic beauty of a 911, but that's not why I drive one. My last 911 was "rough," cosmetically. Mechanically, it was peerless. No bling-1911 for me.

I think I may have found my gun. I had once looked at a Taurus and nearly bought it, but now glad I didn't. As it turns out, that gun is not as reliable as I want. I was also favoring a 1911 because of the time-tested reliability but now I think I may opt for the Springfield XD. Been doing some reading and looking, and this is a nice gun for the money. Hold lots of bullets (a nice feature, since zombies often run in groups). Double-stack handles are not a problem for me. They feel great, in fact. WAY better than those short-handled things where your pinkie hangs off the bottom of the handle.

What does "mil-spec" mean? Military spec, I imagine. But what does that mean? For tools and building materials, there is the term "contractor grade." Yeah ummmm.....that's not a nice thing to say about a tool.

[911boost]

The XD is a good gun.

I carried a Glock on the job, and also have a S&W M&P compact (I bought over a hundred of these for work, so I got a good deal on one for me) to go with my 2 1911's. Neither 1911 has been to a gunsmith and they both shoot just fine (Kimber and Para Ord). My daily carry is a compact 1911 (Kimber), and I am very comfortable with it.

I like the fact that the XD has the 'beavertail'esque" grip safety. Both my Glock and my S&W are the trigger type safeties.

Bill

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Superman

Thanks, guys. I was leaving this thread alone out of pity. KC really wants to have the last word. I don't like his chances, given my experience with this fine community of helpful advice-givers, but wanted him to have a fighting chance.....

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Superman

Thanks, guys. I was leaving this thread alone out of pity. KC really wants to have the last word. I don't like his chances, given my experience with this fine community of helpful advice-givers, but wanted him to have a fighting chance.

I'm glad for the additional input.

I really do like the .45 ACP. I have fired other guns and I like this one. I have the feeling I can shoot this gun better than most others.

This will be my first-ever handgun. As I mentioned earlier, I have a fair bit of experience with rifles, and some shotgun experience. So....I'm hardly a newbie with regard to firearms but I certainly am starting from scratch with handguns. I'm learning, and I'm a fast learner.

No tool is an "all purpose" tool. But again, this will be my only gun for a while. I have applied for a CCW, which should be issued in the next couple of weeks. I will, at times, carry this gun on my person. Not often, but it will happen. Mostly, the gun will live in my home. I fully intend to shoot the piss out of this gun at the range. I intend to become second-nature comfortable with it.

I may at some point have the gun worked by a gunsmith, but we shall see. If I do, the purpose will be purely functional. A reflection of my motoring approach as well. I appreciate the aesthetic beauty of a 911, but that's not why I drive one. My last 911 was "rough," cosmetically. Mechanically, it was peerless. No bling-1911 for me.

I think I may have found my gun. I had once looked at a Taurus and nearly bought it, but now glad I didn't. As it turns out, that gun is not as reliable as I want. I was also favoring a 1911 because of the time-tested reliability but now I think I may opt for the Springfield XD. Been doing some reading and looking, and this is a nice gun for the money. Hold lots of bullets (a nice feature, since zombies often run in groups). Double-stack handles are not a problem for me. They feel great, in fact. WAY better than those short-handled things where your pinkie hangs off the bottom of the handle.

What does "mil-spec" mean? Military spec, I imagine. But what does that mean? For tools and building materials, there is the term "contractor grade." Yeah ummmm.....that's not a nice thing to say about a tool.

Good choice, being that it is the gun you like.

"Mil spec" simply means in the original, as-issued military specification. It's nothing like "contractor grade". It's more like your car. Function over appearance, with no frivilous accessories. In a 1911, it means a Parkerized finish. Low, fixed sights. No beavertail. Standard spur hammer. No extended safeties, slide releases, magazine releases, or guide rods. No throating or polishing. No lowered ejection ports. Meant for, and most reliable with, 230 grain hardball, full metal jacket ammunition. No mamby-pamby whiz-bang over rated hollowpoints need apply. A serious gun, for serious duty, under the toughest conditions. The "baseline" 1911.

Some "improvements" from there really are improvements. Throating and polishing of the back of the chamber/feed ramp area improves reliability, especially if you want to shoot target wadcutters or - god forbid - those silly hollow points. Lowering the ejection port, and scalloping the back of it, makes it easier on brass (some guns dent the case mought on ejection) if you intend to reload it. A beavertail grip safety and Commander hammer keeps big meaty hands from getting pinched between the hammer spur and the safety. Bigger sights are easier to see. Anything beyond these basics is simply "gilding the lilly" - frivilous and unnecessary. Some additional mods help aesthetics, like checkered front straps, nice grips, different finishes and such. Others are of no value, and may even make it dangerous to carry (ambidexterous safeties come to mind).

So you "pays your money and makes your choices". Handguns are the most personal of firearms. Set yours up for you. I may not like it, you may not like mine, but that's not important. At least to folks who intend to really use them, as opposed to just admire them. Again, a lot like your car. If it fits you, it's the right gun - or car - for you.

[Walter_Middie]

Sup,

I went to the local range Tuesday night and shot back-to-back a Taurus 1911, Beretta 92FS (9mm), and a Springfield XD. The Springfield XD was the one I liked the most. I too was convinced that the Taurus 1911 was going to be my next gun, and I liked shooting it, but for some reason the Springfield really got my attention. I’m no expert, but I really liked the XD and have been impressed by what I’ve read about them since. I was at the range late until they closed – they even turned the lights out on me. The XD I was using had the white dot night sights, and I could continue shooting even with the lights off. Not that this is a good test, just any eye opener to the usefulness of this option. The XD comes in a compact model so you have the option of a smaller clip, or a grip extend clip that is really nice and feels good in my hand. The compact grip can be had with a 5” barrel, 4” barrel, or 3” barrel. I just priced the 5” compact XD and that will go on my Christmas list.

[Superman]

Thanks, Walter. I want this gun to be somewhat light weight, but I don't like what I hear about "compact" models and their reliability. I am leaning very much toward a stock, all-black Springfiend XD .45 with 4" barrel. The price is certainly attractive. For just over $500, this is a lot of gun.