UAW Compensation?

[Jeff Higgins]

With the collapse of the U.S. auto industry starting to look more and more inevitable, many seem to be placing a good deal of the blame on the UAW. Its overpaid, underworked workers are becoming the scapegoats as much, if not more so, than the inept, inbred management.

So, can anyone tell me what they make, on the average? Wages, benefit packages, overtime pay, pensions - the "whole ball of wax". I know what our IAM workers make here at Boeing. I know many lump all unions (our IAM included)together as havens for the lazy, unskilled, uneducated that are paid too much for too little. I happen to believe what they pay our IAM workers is comensurate with what they do. But I wonder about the average UAW worker.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I know what our IAM workers make here at Boeing.

So you work at Boeing? My uncle works there also, just went back to work now that they have a new agreement.

[pwd72s]

Frankly, it isn't the union members I blame...who can blame anybody for getting the best price for their labor that they can? The Union bosses? That's another story...these fat cats don't care about the sinking ship, because their future is assured...they jump to yachts cruising the Caribbean as the company fails...a failure partially caused by their actions.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Jeff, it's not only the UAW but the massive legacy costs associated with retirees. Full pension and health-care for retired workers is simply not sustainable in today's market. Not to mention the control that the UAW has over the workforce, and therefore over the company's manufacturing decision making. Unions had their place about 100 years ago. Today they only serve to stifle American business. Short term gain, long term loss, that's their MO.

My company had a strike over the summer, millions of revenue lost. The union ended up agreeing to a contract that was incrementally better than that initially offered. Last week we had layoffs, partially due to the cashflow lost due to the strike. Did the union really benefit it's members? Furthermore, I know the terms of our contract here, and there are MANY workers that simply are not earning their keep. Not to mention their benefits, that are superior to that of the salary employees.

[911boost]

I cannot speak to the average wage / benefits for the UAW workers, but I can speak with great knowldege on the CBA's that the Security Officers at one of the Big three had a couple of years ago (not GM). The starting salary was substantially higher than comparable jobs in the sector. Officers that had been around for a long time but were considered Level 1 type jobs, were making in excess of $20 per hour. This does not include the many benefits assosciated.

All in all, when compared to other manufacturing, the Security Cost was substantially higher. I am comparing apples to apples, as I also know wages at comparable positions for other auto manufacturers.

I am only referring to direct labor costs.

Now with that said, some of the larger automakers have a very thourough security program. Meaning, the security folks handle all fire life emergency situations.

While I think the UAW should take some of the blame, and maybe not so much the workers, but the fat cats, the Big Three can't be blamed for not seeing the trends, and building vehicles that people want.

Bill

[onewhippedpuppy]

You obviously can't ignore the incompetence of the management either. They didn't just have a bad product plan, I don't even think they had a plan. Again, ch 11 BK, restructure, come back lean and ready to compete. The house-cleaning shouldn't just occur on the shop floor.

[lendaddy]

Here in Grand Rapids it's a base rate of $35 an hour for "skilled labor" (everyone except the gate clerk).

But the cost of labor per hour for GM is nearly $80 an hour when all employee related outlays are considered(insurance, pension, taxes, etc...). That number does not include facility overhead, that's employee costs only.

[jjone20]

Not trying to defend motor city management, but what bad plan? They sold cars that Americans bought consistently defying all reason. Short-sighted in the extreme, but it is counter-productive to build cars no one wants to purchase. Manufacturing costs were low and profits were high for SUVs, etc., and they sold well, so why wouldn't they build them? They are responsible to shareholders, correct? Again, not an excuse, but trying to understand the bigger picture. And as long as profits were high, they could afford the expensive contract concessions, yes? I read Halberstam's "The Reckoning" a long time ago - it's happened all over again.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Nothing wrong with selling cash cow SUVs, but the huge profits should have been reinvested into their cars and advanced technologies. That approach worked out pretty well for the Japanese. It's called PLANNING. Did anybody really believe that gas would be cheap forever?

[lendaddy]

And Jeff, they are all (almost to a man) grossly overpaid for what they do(not what they are or could do mind you) in the UAW. I have no idea about the aircraft unions.

The UAW has the job descriptions and and rates set so pathetically that no one has to do jack. It's just a slow paced grind with minimal to no effort required. It would be sacrilege to actually bust any ass.

It's actually set up as an adversarial format where the workers try to game the system for shutdowns and/or overtime or further decreased workload/rates/responsibilities. It's amazing.

This is not a slam against the people. I've always said that people are people and will adapt to their environment. The UAW has destroyed the spirit of many a good man/woman.

[Pazuzu]

I think there were two other issues:
1) Building a platform with so many cars (and all of the R&D and factory costs involved) when people tended to buy 3, maybe 4 of them
2) Creating artificial new "companies" (Saturn), which was nothing but an extended platform line, but had a huge cost to get running (all new advertising, dealerships, etc). At least when Toyota did it, they made the Scion line drastically different than their standard line, AND used existing facilities to sell them.

[tc-sacto]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Here in Grand Rapids it's a base rate of $35 an hour for "skilled labor" (everyone except the gate clerk).

Holy cow. $35.00 an hour to put a freaking door panel on or whatever. No wonder they are going broke.

[lendaddy]

Saturn was not a platform share, they were unique vehicles to the GM lineup. IIRC

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

Saturn was not a platform share, they were unique vehicles to the GM lineup. IIRC

Yes, they were new designs, my point was, they didn't extend the platform in any way, they simply replicated cars that existed (the "econobox", the "family sedan", etc). But, they were actively driven as a new, friendly, all American company, because GM was askeered that it might fail having too many cars to choose from, and they didn't want Saturn taking them down. If they would have just introduced the cars as Chevys, or maybe created the "Saturn line" of GM cars, they would have been fine, and probably would have save a boatload of cash.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Actually, Saturn is a bad example because they have perhaps the best line-up in GM's portfolio. They're bringing in products from GM Europe and therefore are actually selling quality cars. The Astra, Aura, Sky, and Vue are all derived from European products. The Outlook is a shared corporate platform, but actually a pretty good crossover SUV.

[lendaddy]

What's most annoying is that you can't have a conversation with a UAW worker without them complaining. They are seriously and consistently convinced that they're getting screwed. I chit you not. The union newsletters keep them riled up about the "man" 24/7.

It's jaw dropping, their lack of a connection to reality.

[Superman]

There you go again Jeff, being reasonable, asking questions. That's not how we do it here on PPOT.

Based on my understanding, I would agree that Boeing workers earn their pay. I have a close friend who is an electrical lead in Everett, and it sounds like they do plenty of problem-solving and interfacing with the design folks. If so, then that makes me really question Boeing's intention of outsourcing.

Matt, I am not sure I have ever seen a strike that made good short-term financial sense for the workers. It doesn't take long at all for the overall financial impact to be negative. Striking workers rarely recoup their losses. "Me, me, me" is not what it's about.

I would be fascinated to hear how direct labor costs could be $80 while wages are $35. Yes, I understand the concept of fringe benefits. $45 per hour in fringe benefits is.....astonomical.

I would not be quick to argue with someone who suggests that $35 per hour is a bit high for workers who are not highly skilled. It would see to me this is potentially a fair rate for someone pretty skilled and productive and in an urban area. And if the workplace has a culture of "gaming" and work avoidance, then I would agree something is wrong.

[Jeff Higgins]

$35 an hour, huh? Plus bennies?

So, next questions: Where does that place them, when measured against inflation, since - say -1954? (I chose that year arbitrarily, base upon the thread that exclaimed GM's stock price was now at 1954 levels.) Are they keeping up, pulling ahead, or falling behind the standard of living they achieved in the early '50's?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Ever look at a union website? The blatant propaganda is incredible, Hitler would be proud. Prior to the strike vote at my plant, the union brought in a professional motivational speaker to get the troops riled up to strike. It's no wonder they really believe that they're getting screwed. Until they get laid off and realize that their "skill" qualifies them to do absolutely nothing.

[equality72521]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

What's most annoying is that you can't have a conversation with a UAW worker without them complaining. They are seriously and consistently convinced that they're getting screwed. I chit you not. The union newsletters keep them riled up about the "man" 24/7.

It's jaw dropping, their lack of a connection to reality.

That's true of every union I've had the displeasure of being aquainted with.