UAW Compensation?

[Oracle]

In case you're wondering this is the main concern for UAW:

http://www.uaw.org/news/newsarticle.cfm?ArtId=514

UAW says meetings with Pelosi and Reid are constructive; calls for immediate steps to aid auto industry

WASHINGTON -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said that meetings he and the CEOs of Chrysler, Ford Motor Co. and General Motors had today with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid were "constructive discussions about the state of the auto industry and the steps government can take to help companies, workers and retirees."

"We want to thank Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Reid for putting this issue at the top of the legislative agenda," said Gettelfinger. "There is an urgent need for federal assistance -- not just for our members, but for millions of workers and retirees and for thousands of companies who depend on the auto industry for jobs, retirement benefits and revenue."

With the U.S. economy already in a severe downturn, said Gettelfinger, "it is essential that the federal government act to prevent further damage to a critical industry which supports billions of dollars worth of economic activity in cities and towns all across the country."

"The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve can help immediately," said Gettelfinger, "by taking steps to provide liquidity to auto manufacturers so they can get through the difficulties caused by an across-the-board decline in auto sales."

The sales drop, said Gettelfinger, which has affected all companies in the industry, "is driven by consumer reaction to tough economic times and a lack of affordable credit for big-ticket purchases."

Congress should also act immediately, said Gettelfinger, to provide an additional $25 billion in loans so that auto companies can meet their health care obligations to more than 780,000 retirees and dependents.

"Strategic assistance to a critical manufacturing industry makes sense for U.S. taxpayers," said Gettelfinger. "The alternative is lost jobs, business failures and a shortfall in pension and health care obligations -- all of which will cost far more in the future than the assistance we are requesting now.

"We look forward to meeting in the near future with President-elect Barack Obama to discuss these same issues," said Gettelfinger. "He has been a leader in the U.S. Senate in working to provide assistance to the auto industry and U.S. manufacturing. We share his vision of a revitalized U.S. economy based on good jobs and good wages -- and timely assistance to the U.S. auto industry is a critical first step in achieving these goals."

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by lendaddy

This thread makes me depressed, seriously.

What is it you want these companies to do, profit more or promise less? What am I missing?

To be honest with you, I really don't know. When I was a kid, my dad's version of "The American Dream" was more leisure time through efficiency and automation. Everyone was going to share in the prosperity. What happened? We work longer hours now than they did in his generation.

I'm a working professional. My dad was a Kansas farm boy who never darkened the door of a formal school in his life - second to last of 13 kids, his oldest sister home schooled him. He died in 1978, at the age of 49, when I was 18. He was a hard working union employee at a big company - the same one I work for today. My mom stayed at home with us four kids. My wife has to work to maintain about the same standard of living our folks enjoyed, with our moms staying home.

The unions and the workers they represent are made out to be the villains in about the largest collapse of American business ever seen. Their "excesses" are roundly derided. Are they really to blame?

In my dad's day, from post-Korea America until his death, our CEO's and higher level management types made a good living. In the '50's, when he left the Army to begin a civilian life, the average CEO compensation for a Fortune 500 company was about ten times what they paid their average worker. A very good living by any measure. The management structure at these companies was only a few layers deep from the factory worker to the CEO.

Today, we find that the average salary (including all "bonuses" - which are now contractual obligations rather than performance based) of a Fortune 500 CEO is over 300 times that of their average employee. There are now nine levels of management between me, a working engineer, and the CEO of my company.

So who is really milking corporate America? Whose greed is leading to its collapse? There is obviously a lot of blame to share. I just hate to see the majority of it placed at the feet of the American worker.

Anyway, just venting a bit.

[the]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

The unions and the workers they represent are made out to be the villains in about the largest collapse of American business ever seen. Their "excesses" are roundly derided. Are they really to blame?


Today, we find that the average salary (including all "bonuses" - which are now contractual obligations rather than performance based) of a Fortune 500 CEO is over 300 times that of their average employee. There are now nine levels of management between me, a working engineer, and the CEO of my company.

So who is really milking corporate America? Whose greed is leading to its collapse? There is obviously a lot of blame to share. I just hate to see the majority of it placed at the feet of the American worker.

Are the unions really to blame? I guess it depends on what you mean by "blame." I guess no one can blame them for bargaining for the highest salaries and most benefits for their workers. And using their considerable leverage to get it.

But if what they can manage to get, say, GM to agree to adds so much to each car that GM can no longer be competitive in the marketplace, it can end up being a major contribution to the death of the company.

Are the salaries of the CEO's to blame? Well, as to just the CEO's, the answer is no. While I agree that the Big 3 CEO salaries are way too high, esp. considering their performance, the salaries are insignificant to the companies' bottom lines.

From what I could find:

"Although General Motors', Ford's and Chrysler's combined losses totaled $7.5 billion last year, their top executives were together paid $5.3 million. Their counterparts at Toyota, Nissan and Honda collectively made $1.8 million."

That 3 million dollars or so certainly has done nothing to put the Big 3 at a competitive disadvantage.

The oft-cited $1500 that must be added to each car to pay for worker's (present and past) health care costs, however, is a tremendous competitive disadvantage for GM. Esp. when Toyota's number is something like $100 or so. With the millions of units sold, and the small margin per unit, 1500 per is huge.

And that doesn't include the above market salaries of millions of workers, other benefits, etc.

I agree, though, that there are of course a lot of causes/reasons for the failure of the American auto industry. That would include pay that is too high all around (workers and execs alike), the making of generally crappy cars, very poor product planning, and countless other issues. But certainly, the unions' "overeffectiveness" on behalf of their workers over the years is a significant factor. The "legacy costs" alone have ended up being a tremendous debilitating force on the automakers.

[shbop]

Samuel Gompers would roll if he knew what had become of today's unions. The new creedo of: "We want as much as we can get, for doing as little as possible" is about as far to the left of "Give us a fair wage for an honest days work", as one can get. Unions need to understand: there is "no free lunch" You want to eat? --- bust-out your wallet, or start washing dishes. I think Smith Barney uses the old motto " We do it the old fashioned way, we earn it." Wow, what a novel idea.

[turbo6bar]

Originally Posted by shbop

Samuel Gompers would roll if he knew what had become of today's unions. The new creedo of: "We want as much as we can get, for doing as little as possible" is about as far to the left of "Give us a fair wage for an honest days work", as one can get.

Higgins, this is at the root of your "Why is life for the working class more difficult today?" Everyone wants more for less: employees, unions, management, executives, customers, etc. This, along with many other factors, is putting the nation into hardship. Laying the blame at corporate America is short-sighted. It would be like laying blame entirely on the Federal Reserve for creating the housing debacle. It's never so simple.

[Oh Haha]

The CEO's need to take a pay cut. While I have certain feelings for the UAW and SOME of it's memebership, the management must make sacrifices to make it work.

[onewhippedpuppy]

From Oracle's link: "The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve can help immediately," said Gettelfinger, "by taking steps to provide liquidity to auto manufacturers so they can get through the difficulties caused by an across-the-board decline in auto sales."

The sales drop, said Gettelfinger, which has affected all companies in the industry, "is driven by consumer reaction to tough economic times and a lack of affordable credit for big-ticket purchases."


If that's to blame, then why isn't Toyota asking for a bailout? I think there's a little more to it than that.

[onewhippedpuppy]

From Oracle's link: "The U.S. Treasury and the Federal Reserve can help immediately," said Gettelfinger, "by taking steps to provide liquidity to auto manufacturers so they can get through the difficulties caused by an across-the-board decline in auto sales."

The sales drop, said Gettelfinger, which has affected all companies in the industry, "is driven by consumer reaction to tough economic times and a lack of affordable credit for big-ticket purchases."


If that's to blame, then why isn't Toyota asking for a bailout? I think there's a little more to it than that.

[Oh Haha]

http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/uaw-leader-says-no-more-concessions/249464?cid=5

[futuresoptions]

Just my .02, being from a union background, I can tell you that the ones that have the gift of gab, but are clueless when it comes to doing their jobs, are the ones promoted into management (Seen it time and time again). The good managers that could perform the jobs that they are asked to supervise are pushed out by those who can't. Don't know if this is true for the auto industry, but I would suspect that it is the norm everywhere. Then as these unskilled managers are promoted into higher positions, the incompetence trickles out in a spiderweb of ignorance. No wonder corporate America is hurting... The companies deserve what bed they made imho....

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by futuresoptions

Just my .02, being from a union background, I can tell you that the ones that have the gift of gab, but are clueless when it comes to doing their jobs, are the ones promoted into management (Seen it time and time again). The good managers that could perform the jobs that they are asked to supervise are pushed out by those who can't. Don't know if this is true for the auto industry, but I would suspect that it is the norm everywhere. Then as these unskilled managers are promoted into higher positions, the incompetence trickles out in a spiderweb of ignorance. No wonder corporate America is hurting... The companies deserve what bed they made imho....

Meaningful management positions in the Big Three are not from the ranks.

But yes they deserve what they're getting.