wheel guns

[charleskieffner]

since i have been shooting a long damn time now, it always bothers me to carry with juan in the pipe. the only time i carry anything in the pipe is when i am shooting or hunting by myself.......PERIOD!

im not a cop, i am always aware of my surroundings and have taught all family members to always keep an eye on their surroundings. i have no reason to carry juan in the pipe, unless of course out in der wilderness when bears are an issue.

im proficient enough and have trained enough to draw from a concealed position that i am not ever worried about a threat approaching because i really do always watch my surroundings anytime anyplace everywhere i go. i love watching and even mentioning sometimes to people who are carrying "thats a nice .45 ya got" and watch them blush! i always look for a "print" always anywhere anytime.

fanny paks are a joke as far as im concerned for ccw.

any of my pistols are always carried safety on, no rounds in pipe. on revolvers i always leave firing pin on an empty cylinder with a $100 dollar bill stuffed in there for "burying money" hell this is the west........and i havent had nor am i going to have an AD EVER!

i really do enjoy DECOCKERS on semi-autos. makes life easier and safer. on revolvers carrying on an empty, is just a smart thing to do if your riding a quad, climbing rock escarpments, horseback, dirty bikeing,roller blading,surfing, fast roping from helos, or even jumping on a westbound freight train.

if ya fall and the hammer hits first or even second, ya dont have to ever worry! well maybe about yer head if ya dont have a helmet on.

my CCW instructor and mcso sheriff, j.p. maldonado(ex french fereign legion) has been on my ass to carry live rounds in the pipe and whenever i see him he asks me "got juan in da pipe?" and i reply "NO!" i have practiced numerous times coming from a concealed under shirt or jacket or out of my pants pocket,racking and pointing so many times now its second nature. and it is good practice be it a revolver or a semi to practice in front of a mirror with someone timing you. of course with the damn thang UNLOADED!

mossad ayoob preaches the "israeli" method of coming from a concealed condition, out of holster or pocket and holding weapon on its side(NO! not the ghetto method) with strong hand and racking slide with the other, and firing. instinctive point and shoot. ie. dont bother lining up front and rear sights. just point front sight at target and fire, all the while looking and gaining cover. same applies to revolvers w/out the racking slide, hell just pull the trigger and the cylinder moves and the firing pin lands on live round.

this drill was on our sunday rio salado range menu with the .22's. only difference was pistol barrel was pointed down on shooting table in front of you, when you got the command "shooter ready?" no time to line up front and rear sights, just point front sight at target and fire.

and heres a FYI fer you...........if you are EVER INVOLVED in a justifiable homicide(thats what there called), you can tell EVERYJUAN and his brother you came from a concealed carry position and YOU HAD TO RACK A ROUND BEFORE FIRING, thereby the jury and the cops will realize your not a bloodthirsty killer looking for a gunfight with juan in the chamber or pipe and the safety off!

and yes the above is a point made in homicide trials.

[RPKESQ]

Charles,
Why with a modern transfer bar lock-work would you worry about a impact blow discharging the loaded cylinder? It is nigh on impossible. The odds of that happening are on the same level of a live road "cooking" off in the same revolver.

It is a little more complex in a semi auto, but there too, modern lock-work and a proper holster is extremely safe.

Not being critical, just wondering how you envision an AD on a modern revolver with all chambers loaded.

Or am I misunderstanding your concerns?

[charleskieffner]

honestly.............you just cant teach an old dawg like myself new tricks. was raised by my father who carried a .45 in combat for 5 years in the south pacific. while young we rode a lot of goofy ass horseys around here in the dezert. you never knew if you were going to get a nantuckett sleigh ride back to ranch or corral when the horseys sniffed water. and if ya got "the ride of your life" back, sometimes that involved walking after being thrown off or jumping off to avoid going thru cholla or mesquite or palo verde trees on the horseys wild dash to water. being thrown with any gun on adds lots of "drama" and the last thing we needed was a gunshot wound from a wheel gun or a semi-auto.

yes i know this sounds corny but back in the day before lawyers and litigation and transfer bars blocking firing pins that was the "SAFE" way to carry a wheel gun or a .45.

and since i have made age 51 , i dont plan on changing my modus operendi anytime soon.

now the day i go to a gunfight...................well everything will be COCKED/LOCKED/READY TO ROCK!

i really would rather be safe than sorry.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

The shooting public is pretty conservative and does not like radical change.

This is true. Pistols are also getting boring. What real innovation has there been in the 30+ years since polymer frames became mainstream? I can't think of any. Maybe tactical lights and lasers, but those are hardly innovations in the core weapon.

Even battle rifles are stagnant. Here we are, 40 years later, still using the M16.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

In deference to m21sniper, who thinks that all revolvers are unsafe without manual safeties, you could have a thumb safety and even a grip safety like the S&W model 40/42.

I never said that. I said single action(or equivelant) weapons should all have safeties.

I did also say that i saw no reason revolvers and for that matter all firearms should not have safeties either though.

Seems like common sense to me....

But i have owned revolvers. DA's are safe without safeties as long as you're not stupid.

[RPKESQ]

Originally Posted by jyl

This is true. Pistols are also getting boring. What real innovation has there been in the 30+ years since polymer frames became mainstream? I can't think of any. Maybe tactical lights and lasers, but those are hardly innovations in the core weapon.

Even battle rifles are stagnant. Here we are, 40 years later, still using the M16.

Blame the market place and tax aversion. Conservative shooters and the huge cost to the public to change a military weapons system.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by jyl

This is true. Pistols are also getting boring. What real innovation has there been in the 30+ years since polymer frames became mainstream? I can't think of any. Maybe tactical lights and lasers, but those are hardly innovations in the core weapon.

Even battle rifles are stagnant. Here we are, 40 years later, still using the M16.

Well ok then, we can put you in charge of PPOT R&D....what would YOU build to shake things up?

I love gadgetry, what 'cha thinkin' bro?

If they ever perfected caseless ammo that would be a big step forward i suppose. Since the G11 no one has really made a serious effort to field a caseless ammo small arms weapon though, at least not that i'm aware of.

What else is there?

I think the next revolution will be laser rifles or maybe portable rail guns or something. Firearms themselves are pretty close to perfected IMO.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

If money is no object, tabby is right on about the Freedom Arms. There has simply never been a finer single action made by anyone, anywhere, at any time. Fantastic revolvers, but they will set you back a good two grand. Or more.

Unnnhuh...thats why I picked up a FA Mdl 83 in 22LR and extra cylinder 22 M with 7 1/2 Barrel, Scope in the box for $800.00....

[tabs]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

No I am saying you can't shoot a collector grade gun enough to master it, without destroying the value of it.





Yes, they did. Now the springs won't break, but it still will shoot loose faster several by several orders of magnitude than the S&W with heavy magnum loads.

Don't confuse shooters with collectors.

And exactly when are you gona need those heavy magnum loads? Home Defense??? For the general public it is shooting range or plinking in the desert...so light 357 or 38 spl rounds will be fine. And if perchanch one is doing some serious target shooting light loads are the order of the day anyway.

So what is the intended shooting purpose for the pistol in question is more appropriate...

If I am going to Alaska I would take a Ruger cause if I lose it, drop it in the muck or run over with a truck...WHO CARES...and who cares about the smoothness of the action under those circumstances....just so long as it goes bang at the right time.

[jyl]

For handguns, I'd like to see a really thin gun. Most semiautos are over 1" thick (e.g. Glocks are about 1.2" thick at the slide) and rather blocky. How about something 1/2" thick? I guess the ultimate limiting factor is the cartridge diameter. But instead of fat short bullets with blunt/soft tips, how about skinny long bullets with pointed/hardened tips for penetration, designed to fragment or tumble (or better yet, fragment then tumble) after penetrating.

I also think bore axis can be a lot lower. A typical semiauto puts the bore axis about 1" above the base of your thumb. After each shot you have to re-acquire the target. Why can't bore axis be level with or slightly below the base of your web? Not possible with Browning's design, where the slide is wrapped around the barrel and has to move rearwards along the barrel axis by over an inch - your hand is in the way. But there are other ways to absorb and release the recoil energy. E.g. with the Luger's toggle action, after a a tiny rearward motion the recoil energy is stored by the toggle, which moves upwards - your hand would not be in the way. A gas system would allow even more possibilities.

Everyone places the magazine in the grip. This restricts the dimensions of the cartridge and results in blocky, non-ergonomic grips. It also limits the practical barrel length, since the chamber is located forward of the grip. Suppose the chamber were located behind the grip, like on the old Remington XP-100? Instead of a 4" barrel as in a full-size 1911 (after deducting the chamber) you could have 8" of actual rifled barrel. The magazine could go above the barrel, similar to the FN P90, which might get you a 30+ round capacity as well.

There must be all sorts of interesting and better designs out there. We could have concealed carry pistols less than 1/2" thick, fast-shooting pistols that stay on target with no barrel lift at all, long-barreled pistols with terrific muzzle velocity that aren't front-heavy.

[tabs]

This is just perfect for the tough gun totin P Board Boyz...Real men everyone of them...

[Rick Lee]

JYL, aren't you the guy who owns a SIG P210? What the hell are you complaining about? I don't know what size hands you have, but most high-end semi-autos these days are pretty darn ergonomical, IMHO. And if they need tuning, there's no end to the aftermarket grips out there. My full size Springfield 1911 is probably the narrowest handgun I have and is much less bulky than any of my SIG's. Ditto for my Commander. Maybe I'm just easy to please, but I haven't thought of too many things I want that aren't already available in one gun.

[HHI944]

Originally Posted by tabs

This is just perfect for the tough gun totin P Board Boyz...Real men everyone of them...

I was in a shop the other day picking up a new holster for my 1911 and they had a bright pink Walther .22 on display.

[nostatic]

[nostatic]

[nostatic]

[Rick Lee]

I have a problem with some of these funky colored guns. Some of them look like toys, but are quite real. In a CCW class the instructor passed around a blue toy Glock and then a real one that was the same color blue. It was scary how identical they looked and felt in every respect.

[RPKESQ]

[QUOTE=tabs;4564780]And exactly when are you gona need those heavy magnum loads? Home Defense??? For the general public it is shooting range or plinking in the desert...so light 357 or 38 spl rounds will be fine. And if perchanch one is doing some serious target shooting light loads are the order of the day anyway.

So what is the intended shooting purpose for the pistol in question is more appropriate...
[QUOTE]

Nostatic stated the purpose. And why spend the money on a collectors piece when you will substantially lower its value by shooting it enough to master it? Regardless of load strength?

Pissing away money is just not too bright in any circumstance.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

Nostatic stated the purpose. And why spend the money on a collectors piece when you will substantially lower its value by shooting it enough to master it? Regardless of load strength?...

I happened to purchase two of your so called "collectors' pieces" discussed in this thread back when they were brand new, and I was still a kid and into guns. They're not "collectors pieces" from my perspective, just quality firearms that I wanted (back then) and still desirable today. Now granted, some of Tabs' spoons might be collectors' spoons, but these pistols are like 911s imo...drive 'em like ya stole em, and I neither drive nor shoot enough, but that's only because I've been spread pretty thin with my various interests/hobbies over the years. I don't utilize a LOT of my toys as much as I'd like, but avoiding depreciation has never, and will never be a concern. Ya can't take it witcha when ya go...and life's too short

[charleskieffner]

ya know after reading these i thought way back when " what else can they come up with" regarding guns. and here we have .500 goofy rounds for pistoles, scandium frames, god forbid plastic guns,.50 cal semi sniper rifles and on and on with techno stuff.

i really think the mfg. on the cutting edge of high techno is HK. as mentioned they designed and perfected caseless ammo mit der G-11, and a boat load of other new fangled techno stuff.

hell technology has made me drop bucks into my "club" 870 pump with the advent of specops recoil reducing rear stocks. hell ive wanted to sell that damn thing for years cuz it was a PITA to shoot each and everytime, especially after buying a HK M1-SUPER 90 and then a BENELLI M-2 both in 12 gauge. and along comes high tech and overnight theirs a resurgence in 870's to the point that even remington factory is selling both models of tactical 870's with the folder and fixed specops stock NIB!

so every year a problem or hurdle seems to be addressed in some positive manner.

after talking sunday with fellow shooters at the range, it really doesnt matter if ya have the new fangled sturmgewehr wazoo tank busting mongo mega caliber sidearm/rifle/shotgun or some pissant .22/.25/.32/.380 mousegun, when the SHTF. what matters is how accurate you are and how you control a large caliber or the small caliber. somewhere i read or heard that the lowly pissant .22 takes the honors for killing the MOST people every year by accident or being intentional! why? because people do not respect the round nor know its ballistic capabilities.

hell i'd rather have ANY GUN of ANY SIZE, in any situation known, than not have one!

by the way for any of you with smith and wesson made walther ppk/s, mfg from 2002 to 2009 they have been recalled for an apparent AD situation involving the decocker. go to smith und wesson.com or waltherusa.com for further updates. turn around time on recall fix is 9-12 weeks.