wheel gun time

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by tabs

Jeffy your OLD SCHOOL...I LOVE the 45 LC...have a bunch of em...coupla Colt NS TGTS ...A Colt Bisley...and some others...


For Muzzle velocity...the 357 has it over the 45LC ..that equates to penetration, For Muzzle ENERGY the 357 is about equal..that means stopping power. And it is a FLAT Shooter....IF ya got the stones ya can even drop a Grizz with one...For BACK PACKING...the 357 is a dandy...

BUT WE ARE SPLITTING **** HAIRS NOW AREN"T WE?

Yup, old school all the way. One of my favorite quotes, credited to one Stephen P. Garbe: "smokeless powder is a passing fad". Long live black powder and lead bullets!

I admit to a certain bias towards the old and romantic, and nothing in handgunning is any older or more romantic than the .45 Colt. For me, personally, it was the very first centerfire gun I ever got to shoot. It was the first I ever reloaded for, and the one I learned to cast bullets for.

I've also shot a bit of game, and non-game animals with it. With the .357, too, just not as much. I've developed my preferences, at least to a degree, based on that experience. The big old .45 just seems to put 'em down faster, and penetrates noticeably better. I do love my .357's, and have shot many tens of thousands of rounds through them, but when heading for the hills, I grab something that starts with a "4". Usually a .45 Colt, sometimes a .44 mag, but rarely a .357.

Oh well, debates of this nature are part of the fun. I would happily spend the rest of my days with either and never feel "under gunned". I do, however, reserve the right to argue the finer points, and split hairs with anyone so interested. Preferably around a campfire, or in front of a fireplace, with a good Scotch and a good cigar in hand.

[Paul K]

Awesome gun. I have a 687 Combat magnum in 4";



Love it!

[Joeaksa]

Hey guys, need to once again remind you that posting lots of pics on the internet of "the spoons that I own and have at home" in many cases might attract people of low morals?

Should someone figure out who so and so is, and figure out where they live (both not too difficult in some cases) its like leaving bread crumbs to burglars and tweekers who just love to break in and steal spoons and other "quick sale" items.

Please lets not give them more info than they need...

[targa911S]

personally I like the Colt police positive, but I believe the biggest cal. was .38 special.

[targa911S]

I just mounted a scope on a S&W 500 .500 S&W cal. at the shop. What a monster. It should come with wheels and elevation controls.

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by targa911S

I just mounted a scope on a S&W 500 .500 S&W cal. at the shop. What a monster. It should come with wheels and elevation controls.

Dave...do you and the shop you are working at/for smith Browning Hi-Powers?

When I drive the 356 back I plan on riding with ol' John. It has some issues since I've probably put 3k rounds through it, carried in my SV2 (flight gear for a helo pilot) on three cruises, Desert Storm, etc.

Since I want to stop by and say hello, I'd love to have you take a look. I can leave it with you.

Hope all is well.

Paul

[targa911S]

Sure Paul. Bring it. Do you have firm dates yet? I may have to have hernia surgery so I'm keepin' everything kinda loose for now. (no intended pun)

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by targa911S

Sure Paul. Bring it. Do you have firm dates yet? I may have to have hernia surgery so I'm keepin' everything kinda loose for now. (no intended pun)

As firm as a 48 year old car will allow...looks like pick-up last week of September, drive up to Seattle then across soon after. Think Oct 10ish.

But, again, Denis and I have been learning a lot (nothing negative at all) so I plan on staying more flexible than your hernia - pun intended

My best as always, Dave. Jack, now 5'10" asked me to pass along his greetings as well.

[targa911S]

I think that will work fine for me. I have to see the sawbones on tuesday and plan on getting cut in the next two weeks or so. Tell BIG Jack I said Hi as well. 10/10 we are playing in da burgh so I could entertain you as well!

[Henry Schmidt]

I'm a 1911 fan but I have a couple of wheel guns just for fun.
357 mag with the original sales receipt for 1979 $ 289.

Pepper box black powder 1837


Ruger Old Army black powder steel frame with custom brass handle

[Seahawk]

Originally Posted by targa911S

I think that will work fine for me. I have to see the sawbones on tuesday and plan on getting cut in the next two weeks or so. Tell BIG Jack I said Hi as well. 10/10 we are playing in da burgh so I could entertain you as well!

Just get well, my friend. I'll get there when I do.

Edit: Henry, very nice.

[Jeff Higgins]

Henry, we must be kindred spirits. One of my favorite wheelguns is my Ruger Old Army. Must be some connection between that and a love of MFI...

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Henry, we must be kindred spirits. One of my favorite wheelguns is my Ruger Old Army. Must be some connection between that and a love of MFI...

Jeff
I'm thinking about buying a conversion cylinder that will allow me to shoot cowboy ammo instead black powder.
Any input on which conversion if any is the best. This one is R&D

[jtkkz]

Smith & Wesson Performance center 8 shot .357

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Jeff
I'm thinking about buying a conversion cylinder that will allow me to shoot cowboy ammo instead black powder.
Any input on which conversion if any is the best. This one is R&D

I've heard good things about the R&D. I think in addition to the version in your photo, they have one with an integral loading gate. The one you show requires that you remove the cylinder from the frame to load and unload. Even with that inconvenience, I think it's the one I would go with, since the one with the loading gate requires some modifications to the frame to accept it. Taking the cylinder out of the frame to load and unload is still miles ahead of loading it as a cap'n'ball gun.

I have to wonder how well these guns shoot with modern .45 Colt ammo, though. Everyone likes the R&D because it is well made and functions well, but the Cowboy Action set isn't exactly looking for gilt-edged accuracy. Minute-of-bad-guy at about ten feet is all they need. Anyway, the Old Army uses a .457" ball, where modern .45 Colts use .451"-.452" bullets, and older ones used .454" bullets. Modern .45 Colt loads with soft lead bullets still use .454" in deference to the old guns, and they swage down easily enough to be used in the new guns. I have to wonder, though, if they would just rattle and skip down an Old Army's bore.

I've never slugged the bore on mine. I might have to do that - I'm curious now what it measures. One would think it is just a .45 caliber Blackhawk barrel, which would run .451", but it's not. It's unique to the Old Army. It's actually a gain twist barrel, of what I believe is a 3:1 ratio, starting out as a 1:54" twist right in front of the forcing cone and tightening up to a 1:18" at the muzzle. Or maybe it's only 2:1, starting out at a 1:36". I can't remember, but I do know it is a gain twist, so it's not just a Blackhawk barrel.

Gain twists work great with conical bullets as well as round balls, so that's not the issue. It's the groove diameter that would be the issue. Calling for a .457" round ball, I just have to suspect it's at least a .454" bore. That would still work with .45 Colt ammo loaded with soft lead bullets, but if it's any bigger than that, all it's going to do is shoot poorly and lead. Not a big deal to the Cowboy Action guys, but it would probably annoy the rest of us.

[Henry Schmidt]

Jeff
Thanks for the input.
I wonder if a special cartridge can be loaded for just such a proposition?
The cylinder might struggle to except the larger bullet but that seems an easy fix.
Do you think the cartridge can be necked to suit the larger bullet?
The next question would be: "is it worth the effort?"

One last question since you seem to be quite familiar with these weapons: I assume the brass handle is not stock. I have the original steel handle but it is considerably smaller.
Any idea what the brass handle originally came on?

[t951]

Originally Posted by jriera

Todd, I see your .38 and raise .07






S&W 625 JM ... in .45 ACP of course

I have the exact same piece. The only thing I don't like are the moonclips.

I always bend them when trying to get the spent cases out. Any tips?

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Henry Schmidt

Jeff
Thanks for the input.
I wonder if a special cartridge can be loaded for just such a proposition?
The cylinder might struggle to except the larger bullet but that seems an easy fix.
Do you think the cartridge can be necked to suit the larger bullet?
The next question would be: "is it worth the effort?"

One last question since you seem to be quite familiar with these weapons: I assume the brass handle is not stock. I have the original steel handle but it is considerably smaller.
Any idea what the brass handle originally came on?

It's no problem to load the .45 Colt with larger than standard bullets. All you need is an expander plug of a large enough diameter to match the bullet you want to use (about .002" smaller in diameter than the bullet). I bet you know a machinist who could make one.

For a .457" bullet, I think I would skip sizing the cases. A standard sizing die will over work the brass, reducing it much smaller than needed, since they are designed for much smaller bullets.

This all may very well be moot, however, if Ruger is driving that .457" ball through a standard bore diameter. I'll slug mine and see how big it is and let you know. When fired, a round ball can swage a long ways down compared to a conical bullet, since it has such a short bearing surface. Maybe Ruger was looking to swage it down substantially upon firing, both to better seal and to increase that bearing surface.

The brass grip frame is aftermarket. I think Power Custom might make them. Midway catalogs them, along with bird's head grip frames. They are made to fit the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk, and the Old Army uses the same grip frame. The stocks look like some old Herter's stocks that used to be popular on Blackhawks. I don't think they are made anymore. They'll fit the stock steel grip frame as well, and the stock rosewood grips will fit the brass grip frame. It should all interchange.

[Jeff Higgins]

Henry, I finally got around to slugging the bore on my Old Army. The bore diameter measures right on .451". This is the modern standard for both .45 Colt and .45 ACP. So, with an R&D conversion cylinder, it should shoot any modern .45 Colt ammo quite well. It was surprisingly easy to push a .457" ball through it, and it does elongate that .006" oversize ball quite a bit.

[Henry Schmidt]

That is good information.
I think I'll buy the conversion, load up some Cowboy ammo and see how she shoots.
Thanks for the effort.