Chevy Volt - $40,000 - Thanks UAW

[RWebb]

did we ever get an answer as to the real MSRP??

on thing for sure - every US made car has a huge health care charge built into it - the Japanese cars have a much lower charge b/c they pay into a low cost system

even some years ago, the cost of the health care content of a US car was greater than the cost of the steel in the car

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by RWebb

did we ever get an answer as to the real MSRP??

GM has not yet released any official pricing on the Volt. It is still several months away as a 2011 model.

[dd74]

Originally Posted by kaisen

When Toyota's plug-in serial (not parallel) hybrid using lithium ion batteries comes out, then it had better be the same price ($20-25K) as the Prius.

Genius logic



GM, BMW, and Honda have tried that route and people like you laughed at the attempts because they weren't 'real' hybrids, but they worked. So don't be hypocritical.

The only answer you'd be happy with would be to COPY the Prius and price it the same. Of course then you'd blast 'em for not coming up with anything new.

Maybe if Ford built it, or it was a diesel, you'd be happier

People like me? You don't even know who I am Kaiser, ur, I mean Kaisen. (whatever).

People like me carry money for new cars (eventually), but only one winner will emerge when I plunk down; and it's not going to be the one with overpriced technology that doesn't mean crap to driving up and down the freeway in rush hour traffic.

Is that clear enough for you, Chief?

[carambola]

my whole point was at $40.000 the company itself either hopes to cash in or doesn't plan a long run.
while an interesting, why bring the UAW into it

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by dd74

People like me? You don't even know who I am Kaiser, ur, I mean Kaisen. (whatever).

People like me carry money for new cars (eventually), but only one winner will emerge when I plunk down; and it's not going to be the one with overpriced technology that doesn't mean crap to driving up and down the freeway in rush hour traffic.

Is that clear enough for you, Chief?

Did you have a few drinks with dinner?
Your statement is not clear to me, sorry.

What 'overpriced technology' are you referring to?

[Chocaholic]

Pricing comes from an article in this month's Fortune magazine. The Volt is packaged as the car to save GM and Detroit....or kill it off once and for all. I believe the UAW single-handedly brought the US auto industry to it's knees with crippling economic burden on the auto companies. Wages, benefits, pensions, and employment requirements that would cripple any company are a few reasons. The dont-give-a-***** work ethic they reinforce is another one.

Why don't Mercedes, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, VW and Toyota build cars in Detroit? Think they know something about unions? Are their employees in S. Carolina and Alabama suffering without those unions? The UAW came to be in 1950's for good reason. But the world has changed 10x since then and their usefulness is long gone. The UAW is now a ball-and-chain around Detroit.

[pwd72s]

$40K?....Bullitt Mustang, $10K less. $10K will buy a lot of premium grade gasahol.

Just looking at it from my selfish personal consumption point of view.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by kaisen

When Toyota's plug-in serial (not parallel) hybrid using lithium ion batteries comes out, then it had better be the same price ($20-25K) as the Prius.

Genius logic



GM, BMW, and Honda have tried that route and people like you laughed at the attempts because they weren't 'real' hybrids, but they worked. So don't be hypocritical.

The only answer you'd be happy with would be to COPY the Prius and price it the same. Of course then you'd blast 'em for not coming up with anything new.

Maybe if Ford built it, or it was a diesel, you'd be happier

So ignore what the people want, and just shove something down their throats, right? GM has been doing that for YEARS, sure has worked out well for them. How well will a $40k economy car play with $2.50/gal gas? Especially considering that you can get 50 MPG+ from a hybrid or diesel for under $25k. It's super cool technology, kudos to GM for that. But somebody must have done some serious tweaking to the business case to get the Volt past the planning stages.

Of course, when they don't sell their owners (aka the govt) can just subsidize the hell out of them, so maybe all isn't lost.

[jyl]

According to Ford, its latest UAW contract gets the fully loaded hourly cost to $55/hour. It is supposed to go to $50/hour in 2011. That is the cost including benefits - medical, pension, etc.

Ford's new deal with UAW gets wages down to $55/hour — Autoblog
Ford-UAW deal cuts wages to $55 an hour | Reuters

That is nearly the same as the fully loaded hourly cost for the Asian transplants (Toyota, etc), which is around $50/hour. As mentioned in my earlier post, Ford's pension assets and liabilities should also be more or less matched up now, and its obligation for retiree medical is capped.

So the UAW's hourly cost should no longer be an "big" competitive disadvantage for Ford, and neither should retiree pension and medical.

I don't know about work rules, etc, but unless we can find that Ford takes substantially more man-hours to make a car than the transplants, I doubt work rules are a "big" competitive disadvantage. As pointed out in one of the links, Ford workers' labor is only about 10% of the cost of making the car.

So if Ford is unable to compete with the Japanese, Koreans, Europeans etc from here on out, it will be hard to claim that it is primarily due to the UAW.

I haven't checked on GM and Chrysler's situation, but I think it is similar, as they should get a similar UAW contract.

There have been some big changes in the US auto industry in the past year or two.

[jyl]

On the Volt's price, you need to consider price net of federal tax credit. I've read that is likely to be $32K. Which would be a competitive price, for sure.

Same with the plug-in Prius, whenever that arrives, you have to look at the price net of credit.

[john70t]

With $25K Priuses and Insights, the Volt doesn't have a chance.

It's rather petty to blame the (well paid)assembly worker.
-The suits planned for it's conception,
-The suits planned the design,
-The suits planned the materials, and processes
-The suits will purposefully drop the car (just like the EV1) after one year of bad sales- wasting millions spent on retooling and design.
-The taxpayers will pay for it all, including the overpaid salaries of the suits, and you blame the worker?

[john70t]

The Hummer is now made in China. Any price drop?

[jyl]

I doubt the plug-in Prius will be $25K, so the Volt won't have to match that pricing. I think low-$30s net of credit should be a competitive price for a plug-in hybrid that offers the potential of zero gasoline usage for the target buyers's daily/routine driving needs. There are a lot of people who would like to only visit a gas station a few times a year. Enough for a niche model to succeed, if it is a genuinely good car.

[kaisen]

IF $40K MSRP then $37K invoice less $7,500 government credit then $30K net is realisitic.

Similar-sized conventional-hybrid Lexus HS250 with NiMh batteries sticker for up to $47K and gets 35mpg.

Volt does 40 urban miles per day using zero gasoline for a $0.40-0.90 cost of electricity
Volt does 60 urban miles per day using 1/4 gallon of gas (~250 mpg)
Volt's urban (city) EPA rating is 230 mpg, based on the standard EPA city test cycle
Volt runs at 50 mpg with no prior battery charge

Like all new technologies, the costs could come down.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

So ignore what the people want, and just shove something down their throats, right?

What do people want Matt?

A reduction on our dependence on foreign oil?
Lower emissions in smog ridden cities? (LA comes to mind)
A hedge against higher gas prices?

You could say GM was looking long-term at developing technologies that would BECOME desireable once people understood what it was and how it could benefit them, and THEN the costs would come down. Of course, if GM were short-sighted and DIDN'T develop these technologies, they'd be idiots. And because they DID, they're also idiots?

Volt is a SERIAL hybrid with a 160hp / 240lb-ft electric motor. The basic platform can be built upon. It is an electric car first, so it doesn't care where the electricity comes from - gas/diesel/LPG/E85/biofuel ICE, hydrogen fuel cell, plug-in, solar, steam, etc.... as long as the power source can generate electricity, it can do its job. So as other technologies become viable or their costs come down, this platform or technology could be readily adapted in future products.

The Prius is a parallel hybrid that relies on its ICE to propel the car at higher speeds. It can't live without it. Volt can, at significant freeway speeds, for several miles.

The Insight is a mild-hybrid at best. It cannot move without the ICE running. The electric motor is 13hp. It can only 'assist' the gasoline powered engine.

The Nissan Leaf is a pure EV (~65hp) with large-capacity LiIon batteries for a 100 mile range under urban conditions. But freeway speeds may reduce the range to 30 miles before requiring a 6-8 hour charge (without special charging stations). The $25,000 Leaf is about the size and shape as a Nissan Versa which starts under $10K. Nissan believes that EV, not hybrid, is the future.

Matt, where would YOU like to see the Volt priced so it isn't being 'shoved down your throat'?

[onewhippedpuppy]

A Volt priced at $30k makes sense. The technology involved, and the MPG return, are worth more money than a typical hybrid. If tax incentives get it there then it might have a chance.

Simply having the technology isn't enough, it has to make business sense. Honda only leased a few hydrogen cars because they were too expensive, it didn't make economic sense. You mention a Lexus, but a Chevy isn't a Lexus. If given the choice between the two at the same price, what do you think the average American would choose? Especially considering our current cheap gas.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Serious question: do you think anyone ever changes their mind or is more considerate in their thinking about complex issues when you post facts? John, you are consistently doing the disinterested research and homework that blows away much of the disinformation and emotional claptrap presented by the political entertainment media, I just wonder if anyone goes back and rethinks their original position, like the one that opened up this thread.

Originally Posted by jyl

According to Ford, its latest UAW contract gets the fully loaded hourly cost to $55/hour. It is supposed to go to $50/hour in 2011. That is the cost including benefits - medical, pension, etc.

Ford's new deal with UAW gets wages down to $55/hour — Autoblog
Ford-UAW deal cuts wages to $55 an hour | Reuters

That is nearly the same as the fully loaded hourly cost for the Asian transplants (Toyota, etc), which is around $50/hour. As mentioned in my earlier post, Ford's pension assets and liabilities should also be more or less matched up now, and its obligation for retiree medical is capped.

So the UAW's hourly cost should no longer be an "big" competitive disadvantage for Ford, and neither should retiree pension and medical.

I don't know about work rules, etc, but unless we can find that Ford takes substantially more man-hours to make a car than the transplants, I doubt work rules are a "big" competitive disadvantage. As pointed out in one of the links, Ford workers' labor is only about 10% of the cost of making the car.

So if Ford is unable to compete with the Japanese, Koreans, Europeans etc from here on out, it will be hard to claim that it is primarily due to the UAW.

I haven't checked on GM and Chrysler's situation, but I think it is similar, as they should get a similar UAW contract.

There have been some big changes in the US auto industry in the past year or two.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by john70t

The Hummer is now made in China. Any price drop?

Hummers are not made in China. A Chinese company OWNS Hummer, but as of today, they still intend to build and assemble them here in the USA.

Due to tariffs on foreign-built trucks, it doesn't always make sense to build them offshore for US consumption. That's why Toyota and Nissan trucks are built here.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

A Volt priced at $30k makes sense. The technology involved, and the MPG return, are worth more money than a typical hybrid. If tax incentives get it there then it might have a chance.

Simply having the technology isn't enough, it has to make business sense. Honda only leased a few hydrogen cars because they were too expensive, it didn't make economic sense. You mention a Lexus, but a Chevy isn't a Lexus. If given the choice between the two at the same price, what do you think the average American would choose? Especially considering our current cheap gas.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm willing to bet that the average transaction price net of credit is under $30K. Care to take that bet?

You keep bringing up 'current cheap gas'. Do you think any manufacturer with 3 and 4 year lead times can afford to plan for 'current' fuel prices? Why blast Toyota, Honda, GM, or Ford for developing products that make their business case assuming $4-5 gasoline? I don't think too many experts believe 'cheap gas' is here to stay. Measured today, all hybrids and diesels have stupid ROI for most buyers. They still sell for other reasons, including consumers' fears that fuel prices will rise again, if only to levels of 12-18 months ago.

A recent study suggests that those who reacted to those high fuel prices by buying little econoboxes are very dissatisfied by their purchases (duh). Next time, the study shows, they intend to purchase slightly larger sedans with more of the luxuries they're used to, but aren't willing to give up the fuel economy. Given these findings, cars like the Volt may be what Americans actually WANT, rather than being 'shoved down their throats'.

There is almost zero chance that I will buy a Volt. Same goes for a Prius, or Leaf. But I know for certain that those of us who are 'enthusiasts' are a very small (but vocal) minority and do not, in the least, reflect the views of the buying public at large. I don't like to shop at Wal Mart either, but I'm in the teenie minority there too.

[onewhippedpuppy]

The way that Chevy adds incentives to their products, I wouldn't be shocked by anything. I think that history will favor car companies that continually strive to improve the MPG of their cars. But people will only pay so much for MPG, eventually the math doesn't work. Right now gas is reasonably cheap, and there's a number of cars that get excellent MPG and sell for less money. Does the Volt genuinely offer enough to make buyers consider spending $10k more (assuming Volt incentives) for a Volt? From all I've read, beyond the innovative powertrain the Volt really doesn't offer anything more than a Prius or Insight.

By the way, I hate Wal Mart.