Compassion

[Christien]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Workers comp is insurance that I pay into.

Sure, you've paid into it, and are rightfully entitled to it, but the whole concept is that of many supporting few who are lesser-abled. Voluntary socialism, if you will.

[m21sniper]

Actually, it's mandated coverage. If i had my own choice, and if i did not have a highly hazardous job, i would not have paid into it.

But it is, and i do, so i did.

As far as helping people, again, if you want to send your own money, voluntarily, i have no problem with that. But spending our hard earned tax dollars when we are in debt up to our eyes to the chinese is about as stupid as it is pointless.

We all know that the underlying problems in Haiti will not only NOT be fixed, but most likely they will not even be mentioned. Anyone who does mention said underlying problems will be labeled as a racist.

Much like this...

Originally Posted by Dottore

To advocate that because they are black and poor, Haitians are "a herd that needs to be culled" and we should leave them alone to die of their injuries, thirst and starvation is a seriously ugly and pathetic viewpoint.

You won't see one single mention of these people's color or race anywhere in any of my comments on these Haiti threads. FFS, my girlfriend is a darkie....

[johnnywishbone]

"Sure, you've paid into it, and are rightfully entitled to it, but the whole concept is that of many supporting few who are lesser-abled. Voluntary socialism, if you will."

what a stupid statement.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Actually, it's mandated coverage. If i had my own choice, and if i did not have a highly hazardous job, i would not have paid into it.

But it is, and i do, so i did.

So someone else is forcing you to stay at home on worker's comp, and take aid from those more able bodied? If you were truly firm in your beliefs, you wouldn't accept the aid, and find your own way to survive.

Originally Posted by johnnywishbone

what a stupid statement.

Care to elaborate? Or just criticize?

[speeder]

When someone is drowning, you throw them a rope. Period. You generally don't stop and make moral judgements of the person(s) before throwing the life line. The reason I say "generally" is because there are people I would let drown but they are all mass murderers, etc.

Haiti is drowning. It's completely inappropriate to debate whether to help them or not. They are for the most part simply people who are unluckier than you and me. Do you have any idea the luck involved in being born white in America? I'm serious. Do the math.

[Crowbob]

I don't think Snipe is making a moral judgement. He is making an amoral judgement. He is taking morality completely out of his judgement. I think Snipe is saying nature is by definition amoral, the human condition (including the Hatian situation) is part of nature so this Haitian tragedy is natural and amoral. Being natural and amoral, it cannot be stopped nor prevented by moral intervention. Snipe said he does not have a problem with individuals acting on their own morality by giving aid ($ or otherwise, I think). However, he disagrees, thinking it futile, and thus is angry that the government is forcing it's morality on him by using his tax dollars in a futile effort to thwart nature. Not only does Snipe believe it will unsuccessfully thwart nature, but that it actually exacerbates the misery. He has a point. The difficulty I have is that I believe man can be separated from nature simply because man is moral and has the capacity for compassion. My problem is further complicated by government's apparently haphazard intrusions into morality bordering on fascism. Is this a fair assessment of your position, Snipe?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Christien

So someone else is forcing you to stay at home on worker's comp, and take aid from those more able bodied?

I paid for workers comp insurance out of my own pocket (my employer also contributed, but i simply viewed that as a part of my paycheck). No one is paying my way but me.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by speeder

When someone is drowning, you throw them a rope. Period. You generally don't stop and make moral judgements of the person(s) before throwing the life line. The reason I say "generally" is because there are people I would let drown but they are all mass murderers, etc.

I generally DO stop to consider whether someone is worth saving or if it's worth my trouble before i render aid. For instance, i would not piss on some individuals, or groups of individuals, even if they were on fire.

If i saw someone getting beat up by 5-6 people i would definitely consider the situation before acting to help. Not for fear of my own safety, but because a lot of people really do need a good whoopin'.

Originally Posted by speeder

Haiti is drowning. It's completely inappropriate to debate whether to help them or not.

Blind, emotional reactions are usually counterproductive.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Crowbob

I don't think Snipe is making a moral judgement. He is making an amoral judgement. He is taking morality completely out of his judgement. I think Snipe is saying nature is by definition amoral, the human condition (including the Hatian situation) is part of nature so this Haitian tragedy is natural and amoral. Being natural and amoral, it cannot be stopped nor prevented by moral intervention. Snipe said he does not have a problem with individuals acting on their own morality by giving aid ($ or otherwise, I think). However, he disagrees, thinking it futile, and thus is angry that the government is forcing it's morality on him by using his tax dollars in a futile effort to thwart nature. Not only does Snipe believe it will unsuccessfully thwart nature, but that it actually exacerbates the misery. He has a point. The difficulty I have is that I believe man can be separated from nature simply because man is moral and has the capacity for compassion. My problem is further complicated by government's apparently haphazard intrusions into morality bordering on fascism. Is this a fair assessment of your position, Snipe?

"Golly boss, you use your mouth purtier than a $5 dollar whore!"
~Taggart, Blazing Saddles

You read me loud and clear amigo.

[Crowbob]

Ok, Mr. Hardrive from Seattle. Point out the ugliest angle of humanity here and what makes you so disgusted. Try using some of that intellect Seattle is so chock full of. Shouldn't be too hard refuting anything I've said considering these words hail from that wretched wasteland of a Michigan swamp.

[Hugh R]

To be clear on my position. I'm OK with Humanitarian Aid. In the case of Haiti, it is a corrupt government that enriches its power brokers at the expense of its citizens. I'm OK with providing food, medicine, and rescue efforts. I am not OK with simply giving them money, which history has shown ends up in Swiss bank accounts. I am not OK with rebuilding their country for them (which we will, I fear). According to others here, Hillary Clinton said the USA have given Haiti $9 Billion over the last 3 years. Haiti has about 10 million people, that works out to about $900 for every man, women and child in that country that they get from the USA. Wikipedia says most Haitians live on about $700/year, so we're more than doubling that. Also Wikipedia say in 2005 the Haitian debt per capita was $169. In the USA then ours was $40,000 per person; and we're sending them money? I believe the USA has to balance its checkbook. We can't continue to give any foreign aid to any country if we have to borrow from the Chinese to do so. That is financial lunacy. That is like running up debt on your credit card to donate money to the church. You have to take care of yourself first, and others as you have the means to do so.

[island911]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I've been to Camden and Chester. (repoe'd many cars in both places). Then there's North and West Philly....

Shanty towns, American style.

PS: I think you (you being Dottore) are one sorry fk for thinking that sending money and aircraft carriers for a few weeks after a disaster- all so that a horrendous status quo can be maintained- is actually help at all. If we wanted to help these folks we'd take about half of them and dump them off in some deserted corner of some US state. But no way in hell anyone will support that.

PSS: Didn't you say the US should always mind it's business?

....

Why that's weird... no one seems to want to respond to that.

It IS so much more chic to bemoan over the tragedy de jour. ...And of course moan about those who can be labeled as lacking compassion --for not being chic.


Tonight, at dinner out, I ran into a former in-law who raises funds for cancer research. Yeah, sucks to be her right now. Nowhere close to being the tragedy de jour. ...it's like cancer research isn't even on the menu anymore.

now, let's get back to talking about how insensitive and shallow those who aren't on-board with the tragedy de jour.

[island911]

[valley girl] OMG - they are so not cool. Sooo shallow... Gahhh [/valley girl]

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by island911

It IS so much more chic to bemoan over the tragedy de jour.

Dude you nailed it.

I feel moved to rant:

Whenever a big tragedy like this occurs all the pretty people come out of the woodwork talking about lofty ideals whilst simultaneously trying to guilt everyone into donating our hard earned money for a band aid solution at the expense of all our own domestic problems....problems that might actually be fixable (unlike Haiti which is fundamentally fked). They offer no real long term plans, ever. They just say "give, give, give!" All the while putting virtually zero thought into the long term picture. Every dime we spend in Haiti is completely wasted as long as it's a spithole tinpot dictatorship. That Westerners can even vacation there just mere kilometers from some of the most squalid filth on earth is truly mind boggling to me.

We can't even deny that we don't know what our dollars/pounds/euros are going to support...it's right in your face if you bother to open your eyes at all.

Truthfully...and i say this with 100% sincerity...if Obama wanted to actually help Haiti, i mean really help it, he'd send the military in to topple the regime and install a representative republic there. (More of that interfering that Dottore bemoans)

I'd much rather spend $10 billion blowing the hell out of it, completely rebuilding it, and totally replacing the utterly corrupt gov't (a la Operation Just Cause) then what we are doing now. What we're doing now will entail throwing a billion or so at the problem -getting all kinds of great photo ops for generals, politicians and celebrities- and then forgetting the place even exists in a few weeks or a month. Or more likely, the next time some sick, twisted "progressive" musician or actor dies.

The US is so utterly broken on every level, and it's largely because the people here are too. We're a nation of blathering idiots if (did i really just say "if"?) we think that what we are going to actually do there will in any way help the long term status quo in Haiti.

What's the point of saving someone's life who is living in hell today, so that they can just starve to death in squalor tomorrow?

To me it just seems like adding insult to injury just so some of us can feel all warm and fuzzy that they "helped."

I've been in more filthy stinkin' rat and roach infested ghettos and homes than most of you will see even if you lived 10 lifetimes. Some of you jackals wouldn't do anything but cross the street in fear if any of these people got too close to you in a US ghetto. But add in a natural disaster, and everyone starts tripping all over their dix to "help."

I must say i find the entire comedic dance quite sickening.

[island911]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Dude you nailed it.
....

I know.


..you were circling the thought. (among others)

Originally Posted by m21sniper

....What we're doing now will entail throwing a billion or so at the problem -getting all kinds of great photo ops for generals, politicians and celebrities- and then forgetting the place even exists in a few weeks or a month. Or more likely, the next time some sick, twisted "progressive" musician or actor dies.....

Exactly!

Imagine if the Queen of England died tomorrow. All of the "art community" would rally.. busily working on tributes and documentaries, they would slough-off the Haitians like last years shoes.

Oh, just so there's no confusion, when I said "Queen of England" I meant Elton John.

[island911]

. . .or did George Michaels take that crown?

hmmm..


Hey, anyone want to buy a "Haitians-strong" wristband? I'm selling them for $19.95. ..of which (1% of) ALL proceeds will go to strengthen Haitian Hope. --All your friends will know you care. --Oh, and they're green!

[porsche4life]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I generally DO stop to consider whether someone is worth saving or if it's worth my trouble before i render aid. For instance, i would not piss on some individuals, or groups of individuals, even if they were on fire.

Alright I usually ignore you for the most part... But this to me says you are a total douche...

I will always render w/e aide I can whenever I can.... No matter who it is too.... Guess my mommy loved me more or something... Taught me to have.... COMPASSION

[m21sniper]

You think i'm a douche, others here think i'm compelling. Some think i'm a whack job, others think i see through the bullspit and call it like it is.

I realize that i am a polarizing individual. You can't please everyone. Shrug.

BTW, If it makes you feel better, i have little to no opinion of you, good or bad.

Originally Posted by porsche4life

I will always render w/e aide I can whenever I can.... No matter who it is too.... Guess my mommy loved me more or something... Taught me to have.... COMPASSION

Maybe your mommy just taught you to be stupid. I can think of all kinds of situations where you wouldn't help if you had any sense at all.

Like for instance if you saw some ass in a KKK outfit set himself on fire while trying to burn a cross on someone's lawn. Or a gangbanger bleeding to death after a citizen he was trying to rob shot him. Or a rapist laying in a pool of his own blood after his intended victim shanked him. Or a ran down carjacker laying broken in the street. Or some Haji that you just shot and who is now bleeding to death, who had killed a few of your squad mates in the previous week with IED attacks. Dude i could go on forever with examples.

And then there's politicians....how many of us would do anything but giggle like school kids if we saw our own personally most hated politician being strung up from a lamp post by an angry mob?

Next time, before you chime in...Beavis...put a little thought into your comments instead of making a knee jerk reaction based on emotions.

(Familiar song, eh?)

[flatbutt]

A minor tangent in order to catch our breath. I have begun to wonder what is happening in the rest of Haiti. I'm looking for info on if the damage extends beyond Port au Prince. If the damage is limited to the Port and it is rebuilt will life in general be better for ALL of Haiti?

Or like sniper and others suggest, is this the time to raze and rebuild a nationwide infrastructure? One that'll benefit the entire island.

Half of that island is the DR and they are not rich, but better off than Haiti.

[Crowbob]

Little to no damage in the DR. I think that's where the news people are staying. There has been exetensive damage to other cities in Haiti. As of yesterday, there was no way to get to them. They were pretty much on their own. I heard it was a pretty terrible situation.