Compassion

[m21sniper]

You're missing the point entirely.

[madmmac]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

You're missing the point entirely.

Not true.

The point right now is about immediacy of action to save human life and to stabilize as best the situation . It is not to quantify or politicize what action or actions which are to be taken later.

People should die of old age, not an infected cut or lack of water.

Sometimes positives comes from negatives. May this be one for the future of Haiti.

[m21sniper]

I disagree. "Helping" people live in tyrannical and squalid conditions is not help.

It amazes me that so few of you can see that.

"Death is a better, milder fate than tyranny."
~Oscar Wilde

Clinton invaded Haiti to "help" back in 94 (by help i mean he re-installed Aristide, a totally corrupt scumbag), it didn't change a daggone thing. About all our troops got for their troubles was getting shot at. Where have you and these other self-righteous folks been the last 15 or so years since?

Oh. Right. It wasn't a cause celebre' until the ground opened up and ended the misery of thousands of Haitians that the pretty people decided to "help."

Hey, you want to help, why don't you go take a plane ride to Detroit. Or Camden. We have PLENTY of poor people living in decaying crime ridden squalor here too. Nobody gave a flying FK about NO until the floods came. Now, no one gives a FK about it again.

[Crowbob]

Mitch,

Is your location Washington State or Washington DC?

[island911]

So, the guy on the cruise is 'sickened' by the thought of biting into a big ol' hamburger, or having a cocktail, when anchored next to disaster stricken Haiti.

So... how far away does the ship have to sail, before he can enjoy the burger and drink?

Meanwhile, the massive cluster of aid sits at the airport, as the various relief factions 'assess the situation' and bicker over 'the right way to administer relief.'

early on, some group with a helicopter flew low -very low- and dropped bottles of water, and supplies at intervals. Other relief workers pointedly said how that was bad form. ...what; because they were effective first?

[HardDrive]

Sniper, I'm getting what you are saying, but its not like the people in Haiti are in any position to overthrow the government at the moment. Its mayhem.

There is a child lying on the ground at the this very moment with broken legs. Are you saying we shouldn't help him? Lets let him die, and maybe his mother will be outraged enough to take up arms against the government?

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

"Death is a better, milder fate than tyranny."
~Oscar Wilde

.

You try it. Oscar was quite the scamp and wit, but he sure was talking out of the other side of his mouth after imprisonment and hard labor.

It is all too easy to look at starvation, disease and suffering as an abstraction, until you have to live it. Liberty and tyranny can cause people to rise up, but having a purpose and three squares is a life. After that we look to the pursuit of happiness.

Some will be helping, and some will be looting in Haiti right now. Is it always Darwin who must win, or is there some more noble element to human nature that makes us different from animals ?

Even some mammals will come to human aid. Dophins have saved the drowning man, and bears and wolves have saved children from freezing in blizzards. I think under the correct circumstances, compassion is natural to all mammals. You just haven't hit that space where the abstract becomes real, and YOU have the power to do something about it.

I am pretty sure you would not walk away from a collapsed building knowng that a screaming child would surely die without your aid. At least I hope you would not.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Besides, you said America should stay completely out of world affairs, didn't you?

For the record: I did not.

I am very much opposed to unilateral US military adventurism abroad in pursuit of it's so-called "vested interests". But that is a different matter.

[m21sniper]

For the record you absolutely did. Many times.

How about when Clinton unilaterally invaded Haiti in 1994 to "help" them and reinstall a corrupt president. Were you opposed to that too?

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

You try it.

If i was living under abject tyranny, i would.

What do you think i volunteered for the Infantry for when i was 17 years old and the big bad Russians had 5 million men named Ivan pointed at the west?

Because i'd rather fight and die free than kneel and live as a slave. Some of us, you see, actually believe that some things are worth dying for.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who can never be free except made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
~John Stuart Mill

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by HardDrive

Sniper, I'm getting what you are saying, but its not like the people in Haiti are in any position to overthrow the government at the moment. Its mayhem.

I would support a military invasion and annexation of Haiti, including the eventual granting of full statehood, if the Haitian people voted for such.

It will never happen in 10 million years. When the last pretty American leaves there Haiti will be the same toilet then as it was before the first pretty American landed there to "help."

(I could not help but roll my eyes at the story of Royal Caribbean passengers frolicking on the beach just kilometers from the carnage.)

Originally Posted by HardDrive

There is a child lying on the ground at the this very moment with broken legs. Are you saying we shouldn't help him? Lets let him die, and maybe his mother will be outraged enough to take up arms against the government?

I'm saying let's help the little crack babies in Camden and Detroit and Philly before we go overseas looking to spend our money, especially on a flat out band aid solution, which is all the US (or any other nation) is going to apply.

We have plenty of poverty, squalor and decay here too.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Rick V

Charity begins at home, since so many in this country are losing the home to be charitable from, I have to side with Sniper in his way of thinking.

And a great deal of that is self-inflicted. Too many greedy or dumb or gullible people willing to sign for a loan that they couldn't afford or were too lazy to read, or people walking away from a big loan because it is no longer "financially convenient".

When I bought my house I was nervous because I was scared of the $1100 a month payment. I was making $19 an hour back then and knew I could make the payments, but I was concerned by what I would have to do if I lost that job.
I figured it out, I could get another job as a contract laborer if nothing else and work weekends at a fast food restaurant if it ever got that bad.

I did all that thinking and worrying because the idea of defaulting on a loan was one of the the lowest, scummiest, most disgusting things I could imagine myself doing.
Now I can afford a much bigger house in a better area with a much bigger payment, but I don't go there because I don't need a bigger house to impress anyone, I don't need to keep up with the Jone's.
I could have qualified for a bigger, better house back then too, but I considered that gambling.

THAT IS CALLED RESPONSIBILITY!
It's hard to feel sympathy for people who screw up on purpose.
Shame on them for asking for or accepting help from the taxpayers for their own irresponsibility.

The people in Haiti need help and I am helping. If others feel the same way they should help.
But that is the responsibility of people, individuals, private organizations and charities. Not our government!

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I did all that thinking and worrying because the idea of defaulting on a loan was one of the the lowest, scummiest, most disgusting things I could imagine myself doing.

Of course, this was before you registered as a Republican

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by madmmac

If you can give, give what you can.

If you can give and don't, live with yourself.

When you put a dollar sign on a human life, you have indeed devalued yourself.

I have given $500 each to the last 3 disasters to the Red Cross. I'm sure that makes me an idiot to some here.

Not to me. You're actions are admirable.

I spent most of Sunday and Monday (took a vacation day) driving my truck around picking up and dropping off donated items.
I don't know when they'll get there or how much good they'll do, but at least we are trying. Maybe my check will get gobbled up by a bad guy but maybe it'll help someone who doesn't even have a place to sleep or food to eat.
I'm willing to take that chance.

For those who wish to look only at the political side of it:
Visualize the severe poverty and pain and horror in Haiti that is going on right now.
Imagine the frustration that is growing now.
Imagine what would happen if the stinking muslim low-life extremists moved in and promised them all a better life all they had to do was to follow them, form armed militias, and hate the wealthy Americans.

How would you like to have another Somalia at your back door?
We have a vested interest.

[Rikao4]

so as long as we give them stuff they will like us..

Rika

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

And a great deal of that is self-inflicted. Too many greedy or dumb or gullible people willing to sign for a loan that they couldn't afford or were too lazy to read, or people walking away from a big loan because it is no longer "financially convenient".

When I bought my house I was nervous because I was scared of the $1100 a month payment. I was making $19 an hour back then and knew I could make the payments, but I was concerned by what I would have to do if I lost that job.
I figured it out, I could get another job as a contract laborer if nothing else and work weekends at a fast food restaurant if it ever got that bad.

I did all that thinking and worrying because the idea of defaulting on a loan was one of the the lowest, scummiest, most disgusting things I could imagine myself doing.
Now I can afford a much bigger house in a better area with a much bigger payment, but I don't go there because I don't need a bigger house to impress anyone, I don't need to keep up with the Jone's.
I could have qualified for a bigger, better house back then too, but I considered that gambling.

THAT IS CALLED RESPONSIBILITY!
It's hard to feel sympathy for people who screw up on purpose.
Shame on them for asking for or accepting help from the taxpayers for their own irresponsibility.

The people in Haiti need help and I am helping. If others feel the same way they should help.
But that is the responsibility of people, individuals, private organizations and charities. Not our government!

Do you think the people in Haiti are any better in their financial planning? I'm just sayin...

[Rick V]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

And a great deal of that is self-inflicted. Too many greedy or dumb or gullible people willing to sign for a loan that they couldn't afford or were too lazy to read, or people walking away from a big loan because it is no longer "financially convenient".

When I bought my house I was nervous because I was scared of the $1100 a month payment. I was making $19 an hour back then and knew I could make the payments, but I was concerned by what I would have to do if I lost that job.
I figured it out, I could get another job as a contract laborer if nothing else and work weekends at a fast food restaurant if it ever got that bad.

I did all that thinking and worrying because the idea of defaulting on a loan was one of the the lowest, scummiest, most disgusting things I could imagine myself doing.
Now I can afford a much bigger house in a better area with a much bigger payment, but I don't go there because I don't need a bigger house to impress anyone, I don't need to keep up with the Jone's.
I could have qualified for a bigger, better house back then too, but I considered that gambling.

THAT IS CALLED RESPONSIBILITY!
It's hard to feel sympathy for people who screw up on purpose.
Shame on them for asking for or accepting help from the taxpayers for their own irresponsibility.

The people in Haiti need help and I am helping. If others feel the same way they should help.
But that is the responsibility of people, individuals, private organizations and charities. Not our government!

That is so true, I am hurting financially because my wife's job in management, in the high end linnnen industry dried up, when the economy tanked. Because I make my living turning wrenches on high end cars, and have had to fall back to working on domestics since the economy tanked. And since I decided to make sure that my credit cards were payed off as the money started to dry up, and I am now down to one month's worth of cash left, because I decided to get out of debt. I am a poor planner and I would love to watch my ever increasing taxes go somewhere else instead of staying here where they belong. But I guess I am not a RESPONSIBLE person. I am a modest man, I live within my modest means, and I am suffering because of the actions of others, so by all means, lets just give all the money we can to people who will never pay us back. Thank you Sammy for opening my eyes to MY mistakes. Charity begins at home, and to me that means MY home, screw the rest of the planet till I am safe again.

[Crowbob]

My guess is there's a huge number of families in Rick's situation; responsible people who have made ever increasingly painful sacrifices in response to a contracting economy. This is why I am not optimistic. Even if all the right moves were made immediately to get the economy back on track, it would take months to show actual improvement at the consumer level. Many families are just bottoming out now vs. the poor planners who bottomed out a year ago. I have no animosity what so ever for people who do not donate in these trying times. I don't think for a minute that the sentiment that charity begins at home is selfish in any way.