Shot Spoons?? - Page 4

BeyGon · 03-24-2010, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

long bbls help swing through for sure. i'd be pretty impressed with myself if i hit 8/20 at skeet with an 18" shotgun of any sort.

I think I was wrong, it must have been trap,

berettafan · 03-24-2010, 07:35 AM

STILL an accomplishment!

BeyGon · 03-24-2010, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

Don't feel bad about that. I shoot 20 out of 25 at trap all day but I really suck at skeet. I wouldn't do much better than you with the best gun on the planet. I don't know why.

I am guessing I got the names mixed up and was shooting trap, not skeet.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

STILL an accomplishment!

No kidding.... I feel good when I hit 20/25 with a 28" barrel....

RPKESQ · 03-24-2010, 09:45 AM

I feel compelled to state that shotgun barrel length in itself, has no effect on pattern spread. That is the purpose of choke.

No choke will allow you to point (inaccurately) and hit a target in any distance other than as a fluke.

A shotgun must be pointed with great precision with moving targets and with pretty good precision in combat or home protection situations as the spread is minimal within 30 feet.

Any device that allows you to point a shotgun with greater precision will increase the accuracy 70 to 80%.

There are several devices that accomplish this. Sights, lasers, HUDs for slow moving or very close targets.

The best for fast moving targets (birds, clays) is a properly fitted stock and proper form. Shotgun bird or clay shooting is all hand/eye coordination just like a golf swing, tennis racket, dart throw or a baseball swing. That is, you concentrate on the target (ball, clay, bird) not on the device (club, dart, ball, bat, racket).

A proper mount/form combined with a properly fitted stock will result in a typical 70- 80% hit rate with instruction.

I have a try-gun (an adjustable (pull, drop, cant, cast)fitting gun) left over from my Holland and Holland days and would extend the offer to fit people for free (or for travel expenses) when I am in the States.

m21sniper · 03-24-2010, 11:10 AM

Nice offer RPK.

I've only ever shot trap or skeet a few times in my life, and never really had a proper shotspoon in any case.

targa911S · 03-24-2010, 11:53 AM

frenchy has spoken. no better authority on shotguns on this board. i'm humbled by your knowledge.

berettafan · 12:02 PM

Short bbl to be manageable in tight qtrs and to open the pattern up earlier (pattern opens over distance from end of bbl thus a shorter bbl will give a slightly more open pattern xx distance from the shooter vs. a longer bbl.) and to lessen chance of being grabbed by bad guy. Or so i'd expect.

Longer bbl(s) to smooth out the swing when shooting moving birds (as was God's intention) and offer a better sighting plane.

m21sniper · 03-24-2010, 12:05 PM

Federal makes specialized buck shot loads that open up SUPER fast.

berettafan · 03-24-2010, 12:10 PM

You can by 'spreader discs' that you place on top of the shot charge before crimping the shell. Have used them with 8's and 9's to great effect but don't know if they work with BB or whatever size you use for zombie killin'.

m21sniper · 03-24-2010, 12:48 PM

I would think for zombie you'd want at least #4 buck or larger. I've always been a 3" magnum 15 count 00 buck kind of guy.

RPKESQ · 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

Short bbl to be manageable in tight qtrs and to open the pattern up earlier (pattern opens over distance from end of bbl thus a shorter bbl will give a slightly more open pattern xx distance from the shooter vs. a longer bbl.) and to lessen chance of being grabbed by bad guy. Or so i'd expect.

It is true a shorter barrel will make for a handier weapon and easier weapon retention. It will not open up a shot pattern any quicker.

Shot dispersion is due to:

Shot deformation (the longer the shot rides in a barrel the increased chance for deformation)

Shot size and material (larger sizes and harder material will deform less)

Choke (or lack of it, as in back boring)

Aerodynamics (air resistance effects each pellet diferently, the rounder the pellet the truer it will fly, inserting lightweight shot deviders will increas shot dispersion as the lightweight material is affected by the air quicker than the heavier shot)

Barrel length has no effect other than increased shot deformation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

Longer bbl(s) to smooth out the swing when shooting moving birds (as was God's intention) and offer a better sighting plane.

As in all engineering problems shotguns are no different. We compromise to obtain the optimum solution overall in any given situation.

While longer barrels do smooth out most people's swing, they are completely non required if proper form and stock fit are addressed. Churchill made quite a reputation with his 25' (and shorter) barrels by winning several important shooting competitions in the early 20th Century. A fast responsive gun is idea for "snap" shooting such as upland birds or jump shooting ducks.

There isn't really a requirement for a sighting plane on a shotgun. It should be pure hand and eye coordination. If your looking at the gun you're missing.

Many fittings on shotguns (sight ribs, length of barrel (unless we are speaking of black powder), choke selection, etc. are fictions of the gun industry looking for sales features. They do not actually make much if any difference in real shooting.

berettafan · 03-24-2010, 02:57 PM

Sorry frenchy but pattern at xxyds from the shooter will be wider for a given load/choke in a shorter bbl vs longer.

It doesn't start spreading till its out of the bbl. Were talking very small diff I'm sure but most def matters.

m21sniper · 03-24-2010, 05:00 PM

Last time i went skeet shooting many years ago both the guys i was shooting with were using 28ga o/u's.

I was happy if i even scored hits, these two dudes were like Bonnie and Clyde.

It was quite humbling.

RPKESQ · 03-24-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by berettafan

Sorry frenchy but pattern at xxyds from the shooter will be wider for a given load/choke in a shorter bbl vs longer.

It doesn't start spreading till its out of the bbl. Were talking very small diff I'm sure but most def matters.

I'm sorry to say that if you build test barrels that are identical in every respect you will definitely not be able to see the differences between a 10" , 18" or 28" barrel with modern loads. What you gain in longer flight time is less than you gain in greater pellet deformation. Simple ballistic aerodynamics.

If you inject different variables into this test, such as pellet composition, load components, choke/bore size and finish, then you will see a difference because of different variables, not because of barrel length.

This has been studied for over 100 years and is very well understood. The best grade makers were all able to guarantee a pattern size with a given load regardless of barrel length. That is why most best-grade gun-makers would also make up their own shot shells to supply with the gun.

targa911S · 03-24-2010, 05:12 PM

I like to shoot trap with my .410 sxs. one day a guy said i shouldn't shoot a rifle on the trap range....duh.

berettafan · 03-24-2010, 08:02 PM

snipe the secret is that the 28 ga is often cited as being a better clay/bird busting load than the diameter of the bbl would cause one to think. that is to say you might be surprised just how well you'd do with one.

Frenchy you are not being honest here. The BEST shooters in the world can pick up a round bbl, beadless shotgun and hit anything with just about any load. But for the overwhelming majority of shooters (even very, very good ones), be they bird or clay, ribs and beads serve as a peripheral clue. I never said one should look AT the rib when sighting and YOU KNOW i didn't mean that.

Have no idea what you mean by saying choke selection is a gimmick. I suppose double triggers are as well in your book.

I am very pleased to hear you have spent time with Holland & Holland. Have visited their showroom in NYC and thought their guns were just lovely. It seems they have done a good job teaching you the basics of shotgun snobbery (beads are for pussies, ribs are a joke, all you need is a single trigger full/full 24" sxs for any/all shooting). But i have to say that from my limited experience in NSCA some years back the best shooters in the game were pretty darned practiced at changing chokes in guns w/ vent ribs. Didn't see too many hoity toity guns at the time save for the occasional Kreighoff. In fact at the time the best in the business were shooting $800 Beretta 390's w/ all manner of 'gimmicks' like vent ribs, palm swells, white beads (some even had red/orange beads!), heavy weight extended magazine caps, etc etc.

it comes down to muscle memory and ANYTHING that aids in getting the gun to the same spot every single time you mount it is a positive feature. stock fit is a major tool (certainly the most important) but not the ONLY tool.

berettafan · 03-24-2010, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

I'm sorry to say that if you build test barrels that are identical in every respect you will definitely not be able to see the differences between a 10" , 18" or 28" barrel with modern loads. What you gain in longer flight time is less than you gain in greater pellet deformation. Simple ballistic aerodynamics..

you are playing games with words now frenchy. you won't say the pattern isn't larger from the shorter bbl (because you KNOW it must be, however minutely so) so you simply say i won't 'see' it. you also conveniently presume the use of deforming lead (or similar) shot and not steel which, in the good ol' US of A is mandatory for migratory birds.

indeed i've spent time drawing 30" circles and counting pellet holes (from my own loads with carefully weighed charges) and very often the answer wasn't apparent with just a glance at the pattern.

it's not that i think you are WRONG frenchy...in any of this really....but that you are playing games with it. is this a common tactic for you?

you make statements that would only REALLY apply to a very small % of shooters. yet you don't qualify your statements.

berettafan · 03-24-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

While longer barrels do smooth out most people's swing, they are completely non required if proper form and stock fit are addressed. Churchill made quite a reputation with his 25' (and shorter) barrels by winning several important shooting competitions in the early 20th Century. A fast responsive gun is idea for "snap" shooting such as upland birds or jump shooting ducks.

So here we are in a thread with a guy named 'sniper' and you proceed to tell him (and the rest of the 'black gun' crew) that longer bbls are 'completely non required'.....if they are hot **** with a shotgun. of course you simply call it 'adressing proper fit and form' which is a hell of a way to minimize the discipline and skill that some shooters don't acheive in a lifetime. and your reference for this is a famous 20th century shooter.

Really? Thanks for telling us that the greatest can do without. That's nice man.

once again it's not that you're lying...you're just leaving some pretty darned important stuff burried in the details.