Cop pulls gun on Motorcyclist

[cairns]

As someone who has had two guns needlessly drawn on him by police (pointed at my head from three feet away) I can tell you there's nothing more intimidating.

I'm not sure if it's more upsetting to see the video or hear the spokesmen defend this clown.

My father and the US Army taught me that you never pull a gun unless you're prepared to kill and that you don't point it at someone unless you intend to kill.

A shame and damn scary that the Maryland State Police don't see it that way. That biker did NOTHING that warranted a drawn gun. Especially without ID.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by cairns

As someone who has had two guns needlessly drawn on him by police (pointed at my head from three feet away) I can tell you there's nothing more intimidating.

I'm not sure if it's more upsetting to see the video or hear the spokesmen defend this clown.

My father and the US Army taught me that you never pull a gun unless you're prepared to kill and that you don't point it at someone unless you intend to kill.

A shame and damn scary that the Maryland State Police don't see it that way. That biker did NOTHING that warranted a drawn gun. Especially without ID.

Your father and the US Army are entirely correct. I would expect a rank amateur ass hat to pull a gun solely to intimidate, with no intent to actually use it. But a "trained professional"? No way. Unacceptable. And to have his department back him up on this is even more unacceptable.

They need to make an example of him. What about this "higher standard" to which we keep hearing police officers are held? A citizen would be arrested for "intimidation with a firearm" and, if a CCW holder, would lose that priviledge. Yet a cop gets away with it. "Higher standard" my ass. This cop needs to be fired, and whomever in the department who is backing him up needs to be fired as well. The citizenry needs to establish that this is not acceptable behavior from our police.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Someone remind me again why there aren't mandatory citizen review boards for every police dept.?

[nocarrier]

Ok guys, I am not disagreeing that the officer should have presented his id a little better.

Let me ask you guys this...


Imagine you have a ccw and are currently carrying your gun with you. You are at a public place maybe a mall or a busy street corner a restaurant or someplace similar. You suddenly notice a man standing in the center of all the hustling people with a firearm in his hand pointed at the ground.

When would it be justifiable to pull out YOUR firearm and defend yourself or the others around you? At what point would you pull out your gun? Would you wait untill he raised his arm as if to shoot someone, or would you take him out right then and there?

Or how about this, You are witnessing a stand off with the police and some unknown guy who is standing next to his car with a gun pointed at the ground. When would it be ok for the police to engage this guy? Should the police use all other non-lethal means first or should they wait till he starts shooting at them or should they just take him out right then and there.

I'd like to hear your opinions on what is legal and what is not regarding the above.

My point is that there is a huge difference with a gun being pointed directly at someone or not. One would be considered as assault with a deadly weapon and the other is probably brandishing (sp?)

I'm not denying the fact that having a gun out is going to seriously scare and piss some people off. It all has to do with the decision of the officer. But the decision to un-holster his firearm is the officers at any time HE sees fit. Was it the decision that every cop would make? Probably not. But all of us here can only speculate what really went through both of these guys minds. Who knows why he felt like he had to un-holster his firearm. Maybe he was on a power trip. Maybe he had a real founded fear that the biker might try and run him over. None of us will know for sure.

AND JUST TO CLARIFY, I AM NOT SAYING THAT THE OFFICER COULDN'T HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB PRESENTING HIS IDENTIFICATION.

Furthermore, the law regarding firearms, traffic, and some other things are very different between sworn officers and civilians.


Which leads me to ask.... If the officer was in uniform would pulling out his gun be any different?

[MotoSook]

You last question. Yes. A uniform officer is easily distinguished from a raging civi or car/bike jacker. The issue is clear here. You cannot continue to present scenarios that make it acceptable for a plain clothed unidentified officer to pull a gun on someone.

The other scenarios you presented are entirely different. The first one is iffy and a civi should not get into that mix, bu a cop should ID himself/herself and command the situation.

The other scene you have established as a standoff. No need to go further.

That cop needs to be put behind a desk. End of story.

[nocarrier]

OK so are you saying that if he was in uniform pulling out his gun would have been fine?

So if I am understanding you correctly pulling out the firearm is ok as long as he was easily identifiable?

Or just to clarify, is pulling out the firearm a no-no under any circumstance?

As for the standoff, why wouldn't we go an further? should the cops just pack up and leave then? Maybe I didn't understand your response. Can you explain? What should the cops do?

And YES he should have presented his id first and foremost. That would have been much better. I am not arguing that a "person" jumping out of a car and pulling out a gun is acceptable. What about ID and gun?

[MotoSook]

Is it SOP for a cop making a traffic stop to unholster his weapon? That's what you need to ask your cop buddies.

The cop in question made two mistakes - he unholstered his gun unnecessarily and he never presented ID.

Your other questions ... not relevant here and won't make it right for a cop to pull his weapon in the scene of the OP. No matter how many "what if" other scenarios you present.

[MotoSook]

You're starting to remind me of my 15 yr old son who can't admit when he's wrong and has lost a debate, so he keeps dreamng up scenarios to soften the blow to his pride.

[nocarrier]

I think this is where the confusion lies.

Is it SOP for a cop to pull out his firearm during a stop? I think it all depends on the situation. But is a police officer allowed to do so at his discretion; In uniform or properly identified?

I think he is. Whether any of us like it or not I believe it is the cops discretion when to pull out his firearm on a traffic stop. The thin red line is that the gun wasn't pointed at the biker.

If they want to punish the officer for not properly identifying himself then I can't argue with that.

[nocarrier]

I'm not trying to soften the blow for anything. I have no problem admitting when in wrong in a debate or any other time for that matter.I'm merely posing a question in an attempt to get an understanding of what the consensus is on when it is ok for a cop to pull out his gun and who has makes these decisions.


But if it makes you feel better.......................then I'm happy for you.

[MotoSook]

Was there a threat of harm to the undentified guy jumping out of a car that had just block the rider in?



If the guy was afraid for his safety he should have acted differently. He was in a moment of rage and as soon as the squad pulled up, he know it!

The off duty cop probably was chasing the bike for some time and the rush of the chase got the better of him. Take this idiot for example:

"Every law enforcement officer holds his or her powers through the public trust, and this defendant's senseless act of rage against an unarmed citizen constitutes an offensive violation of that trust," State's Attorney Anita Alvarez said at a news conference.

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The seven-minute video released by prosecutors showed that Bell didn't appear to act in a threatening or aggressive manner toward the officer. Instead, he appeared compliant and calm even as the officer used a stun gun on Stalbaum, who collapsed in a heap on Bell's front porch.

Streamwood cop charged in motorist’s beating - Chicago Tribune

[MotoSook]

I think it's pretty clear what the popular opinion is here and across the web regarding the video in the original post. I hope my son grows out of his thing by the time he's your age.

I'm not trying to soften the blow for anything. I have no problem admitting when in wrong in a debate or any other time for that matter.I'm merely posing a question in an attempt to get an understanding of what the consensus is on when it is ok for a cop to pull out his gun and who has makes these decisions.





But if it makes you feel better.......................then I'm happy for you.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by Soukus

Streamwood cop charged in motorist’s beating - Chicago Tribune

Animal, i hope he gets 20 years.

It is only ok to pull a gun when the officer has a reasonable fear of imminent death or grave bodily harm (either of himself, or another citizen). The same standard a citizen needs to apply. That's the law pretty much everywhere AFAIK.

[MotoSook]

His victim. One of them.

Quote de Soukus

Streamwood cop charged in motorist’s beating - Chicago Tribune

Animal, i hope he gets 20 years.

[nocarrier]

I can't argue against your post about that Streamwood cop. Seems like abuse to me. And like I said earlier there are a lot of a-hole cops out there.

Was there a threat to the unidentified man jumping out of the car? Who really knows? None of us were there at the exact moment this all went down. We're only seeing it after the fact. That video just showed what the end result was.

Could have there been a potential for harm done to both of these men?

I think that potential existed. I think both men had the means and potential to seriously hurt each other. The unidentified cop and biker alike.

I think someone said earlier that they would have run the cop over. So that proves that there might have been some risk of this happening.

Without knowing the outcome of the video did the biker have the potential and even the wreckless nature to possibly harm the unknown man? Did the cop have any reason to suspect that the guy on the bike might be violent due to his recent acts on the highway? I would think so.

Most of us know that we as in ourselves aren't violent and feel that this would be unjust to someone of our character. But in the unknown mans defense he doesn't know that.

[m21sniper]

The legal thresh-hold for brandishing a gun was clearly not met. The cop is guilty of brandishing, official misconduct, and probably a myriad of other charges. Not that he'll be charged...

No imminent threat, no legal justification to pull el pistola.

[nocarrier]

This is where I believe the laws between civilians and sworn officers differ.

I think if the officer can articulate that he felt there was an imminent danger then he is allowed to pull it out.

Who can really say for 100% certainty that imminent danger did not exist in that officers mind.

That's the gray area so to speak.

[m21sniper]

There was clearly no danger. The cop can spin any tale he wants, but the video says it all. He's full of crap.

He jumped out of his car, pulled his gun out, saw the other cop and quickly dropped it to his side, as he approached the bike he scanned left and right, to determine who was around....

If i am approaching a threat my eyes are on the threat. His eyes were scanning for....witnesses?

Sure looked like it to me.

And it took him way, way too long to ID himself. I am quite certain that in similar circumstances, a lot of CCW holders would reasonably conclude he was a carjacker and draw down on him, probably initiating a gunfight.

IMO this guy does not have the temperment to be a cop.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by nocarrier

....
I think someone said earlier that they would have run the cop over. So that proves that there might have been some risk of this happening....

Wrong, not run the cop over, run over the unkown individual that just came at him with a gun in his hand.

Omar Edwards is what happens when cops run around with guns out and don't identify themselves.

Snip.."Late Thursday, Officer Omar J. Edwards, 25, was shot by a fellow officer on a Harlem street while in street clothes. He had just finished his shift, and had his service weapon out, chasing a man who had broken into his car, police said. Three plainclothes officers on routine patrol arrived at the scene and yelled for the two to stop, police said. One officer, Andrew Dunton, opened fire and hit Edwards three times as he turned toward them with his service weapon. It wasn't until medical workers were on scene that it was determined he was a police officer."

Officer Edwards died.

[nocarrier]

Oh and by they way.

C'mon guys it's just a fricken debate. Don't get so bent out of shape because someone has an opinion that differs from yours.

I have a lot of serious respect for you guys here on this board. Let's cut the school yard antics. OK?