Chiropractors...

[GeorgeK]

I have personally seen more than one patient with tetraplegia after Chiro "manipulation". And it was not in national-socialist Germany.

Carotid dissection and spinal cord damage *does* take your mind off the neck pain...

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Aurel

There are all sorts of chiropractors...my first experience was basically like yours: big practice, that advertises, and once you get sucked into it, they put you on a machine and do not do much. I left after a year or so. Then my lower back pain came back, and I found a new guy next to my work. Great difference. First off, he has no employees, he is the healer and does all the work himself. First I saw him every week for a month or two, and he really got rid of my back pain. Then, he was honest to say I only had to see him once a month, to maintain my back. We have a good relationship, and it has been most helpful.

Yep. Less than 1 in 2 in my experience know what they are doing besides making money. Two of these hacks have actually hurt me more.

If there are any contraptions in the office besides the doc and his/her 2 hands, go away from there.

I haven't seen one in a long time and I probably won't ever again. The last one was that bad.

[Pazuzu]

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

I have personally seen more than one patient with tetraplegia after Chiro "manipulation". And it was not in national-socialist Germany.

Carotid dissection and spinal cord damage *does* take your mind off the neck pain...

First off, the word is "adjustment", not "manipulation". They don't "manipulate" anything.

How exactly would a chiro do such damage? There is no rotation of the disks, there is almost no lateral translation of the disks. The disks have more range of motion when someone moves around during the day. More range of motion is forced upon them when someone leans back to get their hair washed at the salon, or when flipping their hair around out of their face. Even SNEEZING puts more stress on the spine than an adjustment.

It's funny listening to doctors get all huffy about chiros, and blaming them for doing something as severe as what you're blaming them for. you guys here are particularly good at it, I've never seen a forum with such a high percentage of self important doctors.


If you take your car into the shop with the biggest sign and the loudest commercials, you might get hosed. Do you then dismiss all mechanics as quacks afterward?
Find a local chiro that has a good referral base.
Stay away from the ones that like their traction machines and crap.
Stay away from the ones that don't want to sit down for an hour on the first exam to discuss everything.
Stay away from the ones that don't want some medical records, maybe x-rays, maybe MRI reports, especially if you've been injured.
Stay away from the ones that want to up sell you on pills, patches, trinkets, etc. Some make things available to you if you want them, but if they have big displays all over the office, then leave.
Stay away from any chiro that mentions wanting to prescribe medicine. It's a new bone of contention among them, a small but vocal group wants to expand into prescriptions, while the rest of them know that it is a mistake to do so.

Finally, if you don't like what your chiro is doing, say something. They can adapt their methods far easier than a doctor can, and they are FAR more willing to refer you to a different chiro if their technique doesn't exactly click with you. how often does a doctor send you off to a different doctor because you don't like their bedside manner?

[GeorgeK]

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

First off, the word is "adjustment", not "manipulation". They don't "manipulate" anything.

How exactly would a chiro do such damage? There is no rotation of the disks, there is almost no lateral translation of the disks. The disks have more range of motion when someone moves around during the day. More range of motion is forced upon them when someone leans back to get their hair washed at the salon, or when flipping their hair around out of their face. Even SNEEZING puts more stress on the spine than an adjustment.

It's funny listening to doctors get all huffy about chiros, and blaming them for doing something as severe as what you're blaming them for. you guys here are particularly good at it, I've never seen a forum with such a high percentage of self important doctors.


If you take your car into the shop with the biggest sign and the loudest commercials, you might get hosed. Do you then dismiss all mechanics as quacks afterward?
Find a local chiro that has a good referral base.
Stay away from the ones that like their traction machines and crap.
Stay away from the ones that don't want to sit down for an hour on the first exam to discuss everything.
Stay away from the ones that don't want some medical records, maybe x-rays, maybe MRI reports, especially if you've been injured.
Stay away from the ones that want to up sell you on pills, patches, trinkets, etc. Some make things available to you if you want them, but if they have big displays all over the office, then leave.
Stay away from any chiro that mentions wanting to prescribe medicine. It's a new bone of contention among them, a small but vocal group wants to expand into prescriptions, while the rest of them know that it is a mistake to do so.

Finally, if you don't like what your chiro is doing, say something. They can adapt their methods far easier than a doctor can, and they are FAR more willing to refer you to a different chiro if their technique doesn't exactly click with you. how often does a doctor send you off to a different doctor because you don't like their bedside manner?

Not that I am particularly interested in debating that, and you make likely interesting arguments, but for me it is hard to argue with case-proven tetraplegia following chiropractical treatment.

Better yet, try and argue with the people I saw.

[gatotom]

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

after 28 yrs as a Chiropractor, believe me, I have heard it all.

Do you think all MD's, Vet's, Dentist's or in that matter all lawyers good and honest???? How about mechanics??? plumbers, carpenters, do I have to name everyone on this planet that does a service to mankind are all honest and trustworthy???

The advise I tell my patients is look for a Chiro that has been at it for awhile, in a kinda small office with no fancy car parked outside, maybe one office staff and if the Chiro has to take a x-ray before treatment, say thanks but no thanks.

Pazuzu, you are right on.

ALL CHIROPRACTORS do is put a force into the spine, if it is in the right direction, you will hear a pop, clunk movement. YOUR BODY does the adjustment. Chiropractors influence the body to adjust itself by the force that is applyed in the spine. That's it..........it ain't rocket science.

if you apply force into the wrong direction, it generally won't move because your body is way smarter than the Doc.

Remember injury to the spine is damaged tissue, not only the disc but all the muscles and anything else attached or otherwise surrounding it, that is why someone would need to see the Chiro more than once in his/her life. Most constant injury to the spine is done by the work that you do.

As long as you can use it, move it you are in good shape for the most part, 100% matter is what you all start out in life. As you live life and have injury that 100% might become 70%, 60% or whatever, so matter does mind even thou mind doesn't matter.

How to cure low back pain, get more sex, duhhh, moving the hips is a good thing, do more dancing, do some yoga, just use it or lose it.

[Geronimo '74]

First of: Pazuzu, good post, well said!

Originally Posted by GeorgeK

Not that I am particularly interested in debating that, and you make likely interesting arguments, but for me it is hard to argue with case-proven tetraplegia following chiropractical treatment.

Better yet, try and argue with the people I saw.

George, I know someone who got a nerve in his face damaged during a visit to the dentist....
I know, or better knew a woman that never woke up after a mistake made by a surgeon...
Medical errors happen every day, whether due to honest mistakes of inaptitude of the practicioner.
That does not say anything in the least about the medical practice itself, not does it lessen its effectiveness in any way.
It is not because some cases do go wrong, that chiropractic is not a usefull means to solve certain problems.
Many many people can attest to its benefits.
I do to, I went to my chiro today, and left, on my own two feet, walking, breathing and all....
For all you guys that ever went to a chiropractor and didn't get the results you hoped for, I hope you did find them elswhere.

Originally Posted by gatotom

How to cure low back pain, get more sex, duhhh, moving the hips is a good thing, do more dancing, do some yoga, just use it or lose it.

Sex: check
Moving hips: check
dancing: check
Yoghurt: check

[TSNAPCRACKLEPOP]

Guess what "tsnapcracklepop" does for a living?

well, quite the lively debate. I have experience in the medical model also, so , Yes,we all have good and bad apples.

And, don't forget, that up until 1957, Osteopaths didn t prescribe or sell drugs(researched this while living and working the hospital in Kirksville, MO, home of Osteopathy, and working for descendants of the Still Family. (see Dr. Andrew Taylor Still, DO. " The Lengthening Shadow Of Dr. Andrew Taylor Still")

Have many DO friends who feel that the change ruined the profession.

The AMA strongly suggests that Osteopaths not "Manipulate" the skeletal system or talk about it.

The AMA owns the rights to the "HICFA" billing form used in the health care industry

Read up on the Wilkes vs AMA case in Sedalia, Missouri regarding systematic attempt at destroying a competitive profession by the AMA, the penalties, and how ALL the award money was spent.

Hospitals pay doctors based on how many orders were written per patient per month. (I worked for Humana for 13 years in the intensive care units, wanna see some outrageous billing and orders written?) Humana recruited nurses and paid them thru law school to interpret the health ins contracts to maximize billing and collections)

Liability insurance nearly prohibits an independent DO or MD from in office minor surgical procedures.

My liability insurance is low, because there is low risk in the way I treat patients.

Watch the evening news tonight, and count how many times you are asked by a drug company to "ask your doctor if this drug may be right for you" (and don't
forget the nausea, vomiting, GI upset, dizziness, sexual dysfunction / function (4hours LOL) etc disclaimer,)

The New Mexico chiros are going to be the first ones to prescribe and administer the drugs, and they will get free education and equipment from.....the drug companies.

I practiced in south Missouri for 2 years, with an osteopath, and in 2 years I never had to buy or bring my lunch....all courtesy of drug companies.

Regency, many chiros used to work for ins companies and tell stories of claims that went into the trash on friday at quitting time.

Just a little food for thought,

gotta get back to work,

they are lined up outside.

PS( Gatotom, say hi to my friends in Puyallup,WA.)


T snap crackle pop

[myamoto1]

I think we're potentially arguing different sides of the same story and not realizing it. I think of it like I do used car salesmen. There are a number of them would steal your kids lollipop, given the chance. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of good ones out there as well. Unfortunately for the good ones, the bad ones get all of the press and set the reputation for the industry. It seems much harder to find a good one, than a shady one.

So, yes there are good chiro's out there, but the bulk of those in the public eye are nothing more than snake oil salesmen. I had a similar experience to the OP, except that my back did feel much better after leaving. However, I couldn't handle the level of BS they were feeding me to put up with any more visits. I actually had the "helper girl" say to me, “I hope you're our next miracle."

I'd love to go back (pun intended) to a chiro, but finding one that isn't trying to turn me into a miracle and lock me into $6k contract for treatment has me scratching my head on how to find a "real" chiro. I've called almost everyone in the book and they all gave me the creepy cult vibe.

So those of you in the industry or validating the industry, other than personal reference (which also let me to a quack) how does one go about finding a legitimate chiro? There don't seem to be too many regulations or industry accreditations that help someone filter out the chafe from the wheat.

[gatotom]

myamoto1, you are not that far away from Leavenworth.

I will make you a offer, I will adjust you for free but if I do help your problem, you can pay me double. Since you are out of town I won't take your ins. just cash or check, 50 bucks first visit and 38 there after.

look up Chiropractors in Leavenworth, WA and my name Bavarian Chiropractic Clinic pops up and so does my telephone number.

I won't sell you no contracts, won't take a x-ray, just give you a honest service. After 28 yrs, I have patients in the state of WA, OR, BC and some out of staters that come to the office on a visit from MD, KY , WI, MN, UT, CA.

So you have gone to the rest, now try the best.

[myamoto1]

gatotom - thanks for the offer. I do need to get the family up to Leavenworth and check it out. I'll look you up if/when we make it up there. Although, I will say, your last line has got me thinking, "here we go again." I'll be quite happy to have you prove me wrong.

[mikester]

The chiro I go to my wife has also been using for years. She is low intensity and has been very helpful in improving my posture simply be helping me understand how important posture is.

A couple of years ago I had a couple of moderate back episodes brought on by being rear ended twice by idiots (nearly everyone outside my car is an idiot though :-) ). The first one I actually couldn't get in to see my wife's chiro so I called her for a referral to someone like her. She sent me to a guy up in Palos Verdes (swanky!). He checked me out and explained to me what was happening to my back, what the pain was precisely and exactly what he was going to do to fix it.

I had a pinched nerve on one side; Ibuprofen helped with it but just enough. He made his adjustment and after about a day things started to get much better (I think I had been struggling with it for 3 days by the time I got to him). I am sure that this could be 'debunked' but the thing that stuck with me was the methodology of the Chiros I have been to see. They diagnose and troubleshoot with a mechanical methodology that I think any good mechanic could appreciate.

From that point I have been seeing our chiro at least once a quarter - more than I go to the regular Doctor to be honest and she is helpful. She pushes posture, strength, diet and excercise. If X-rays were available she wanted to see them but she has never ordered any. She does not take insurance much (sometimes with car insurance claims) and she will not appear in court at all or in any proceedings at all.

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by myamoto1

So, yes there are good chiro's out there, but the bulk of those in the public eye are nothing more than snake oil salesmen. I had a similar experience to the OP, except that my back did feel much better after leaving. However, I couldn't handle the level of BS they were feeding me to put up with any more visits. I actually had the "helper girl" say to me, “I hope you're our next miracle."
.

Mine is a pest. But he is good. I go when I want, and tell him what I need. I stopped going, and even went to a less obnoxious Dr., but I eventually went back.

If you couldn't stand up straight for a month, and you went for a treatment and could stand up and walk out of the office, you might feel like it was worth it.

BTW, I had a chronic headache for maybe a year and a half straight. It was maybe 60% gone after one visit, and I was feeling pretty normal after two weeks and four visits. It didn't happen overnight, and it didn't go away in two seconds.

[john70t]

Someone I knew had an inversion table that seemed to work.
They do take up space.

[widebody911]

A guy I work with referred me to a chiro close to the office that specializes in sports medicine, and then even took my insurance (which surprised the hell out of me!). I was in and out in about 20 minutes, and I felt about 75% better. He does the old-school manual adjustments.

Best $15 I spent all week.

[Aurel]

Mine takes my insurance too. He charges $50 for about 15 minutes, and I get reimbursed $35.
I do not know what his overhead is, but you figure $200/h is not bad money. All you need is 20 patients a day, 5 days a week to make a gross of $20,000 a month. Considering he sees patients on average once a month, he needs a base of 400 patients. Does this sound realistic?

[nostatic]

I was a skeptic. Then after years of back and neck issues in desperation I went to one recommended by a number of friends. No "one visit miracle" but certainly helpful with symptoms without meds, and advice for dealing with the underlying issues. This is in marked contrast to a couple of ortho docs I went to see who reached for the script pad.

Good and bad examples in every field.

[Gogar]

Expecting a miracle from a chiro is like going to the gym ONCE and expecting to come out ripped.

IMO a good chiro can make a reasonably- functioning person feel even better. Again, like the gym.

[vash]

i think 60 minutes did a story. one part i remember. they had to fix something with a kid. they had the mother hold the kid (or touch the kid) while the chiro rubbed on the mom. i would have put my elbow into the idiots face, and blamed a twitchy nerve..

no thanks.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by vash

i think 60 minutes did a story. one part i remember. they had to fix something with a kid. they had the mother hold the kid (or touch the kid) while the chiro rubbed on the mom.

That's what's known as MILF transference therapy; usually takes a course of several treatments to be effective.

[1990C4S]

If they sell the bs 'orthotics' stuff or offer to review your walking/footprint you should move on quickly.

There is big money in 'custom orthotic inserts' ($750 or more). And they are stamped out in bulk for about $5 each. It's a big scam.