road rage murder

[pwd72s]

A damned sad happening. My condolences to the victim's family.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

No, I'm not making your point. The shooter in the TX case was the VICTIM and he was exonerated. Had he not been armed, he'd have been beaten to death. Remember, our gun death stats don't distinguish between bad guys and good guys. Bad guys get shot all the time when their shooters (often cops), had they been unarmed, would have otherwise died.

Yes you are making my point.

Someone died. From a gunshot. In a road rage incident. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong. These things are almost never black and white.

But we have one more death. A death that probably would have been avoided elsewhere.

That was my point. And you made it nicely.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Yes you are making my point.

Doesn't matter who was right or wrong.

Seriously?

But we have one more death.

As opposed being beaten to death by a/an (insert anything here)

Texas Concealed Handgun Carriers:Law-abiding Public Benefactors | Publications | National Center for Policy Analysis | NCPA

[Tobra]

It is bad enough when you hear about something like this happening to an unknown stranger, when it happens to even a passing aquaintance. Hope they catch the murderers, but I don't have much confidence in that happening unless LEO get very lucky.

That is just a heartbreaking story.

You guys need to quit encouraging the dotty troll.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by Dottore

You're making my point really. When was the last time anyone was shot in a road rage incident in the UK or Canada?

Jeff: As to reactions to flipping someone off—much of this can be cultural. If you try this in some macho culture like Greece (or the near east) for example—people will try run you off the road and do you harm. I had this happen to me once in Crete and once in the former Yugoslavia. The finger is a slur against pride and family, and you flip someone off and they will try to fuk with you.

This was a redneck white boy like me, only in a pickup truck. I guess there are some cultural influences at work there as well, though. Same as if I were to flip off some black homie over in White Center in West Seattle, or down in the Hilltop neighborhood in Tacoma. I'm sure their reactions would be culturally driven as well.

Originally Posted by Dottore

I also saw this happen here in Canada once when an unsuspecting young Canadian lad flipped off some obvious recent immigrants from the Levant. These guys pulled a u-turn in traffic with their Explorer and repeatedly rammed the poor kids car at a traffic light at one of the busiest intersection in Vancouver before taking off down a side street. I watched this all from a Starbucks.

Ah yes, but I could have shot them from my Starbuck's. God bless America.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Yes you are making my point.

Someone died. From a gunshot. In a road rage incident. Doesn't matter who was right or wrong. These things are almost never black and white.

But we have one more death. A death that probably would have been avoided elsewhere.

That was my point. And you made it nicely.

Do you think the shooter in this case was a licensed concealed weapon holder? (i.e., is carrying or owns the gun legally).

I know nobody knows at this point (hopefully the guy gets caught quickly, and then we'll know), but if you had to guess, what would you guess?

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dottore

...These guys pulled a u-turn in traffic with their Explorer and repeatedly rammed the poor kids car at a traffic light at one of the busiest intersection in Vancouver before taking off down a side street.

And had they killed the young man would you advocate banning cars? Or just SUV's? Or just Ford Explorers?

After all, even in the good old USA you are demonstrably more likely to be killed by a car vs a gun.

I imagine the odds are even worse in Canada.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Do you think the shooter in this case was a licensed concealed weapon holder? (i.e., is carrying or owns the gun legally).

My guess is he was not. But that is irrelevant to my point.

I think it must be axiomatic that more people will be shot in road rage incidents in a jurisdiction where guns are freely available, than in a jurisdiction in which they are are not. That was my only small point.

CC is not the issue. I'm sure there are my fine upstanding Texans with concealed handguns. Also: the few Canadian or UK examples dredged from the depths of the internet also don't alter this general proposition IMO.

There are a lot of maniacs out there. And maniacs are more dangerous with guns than without.

That said, we've already agreed in another thread that the situation in the US is entirely beyond redemption because of the number of guns in circulation. I even agreed that if I lived in the US, I would be armed to the teeth most of the time.

But imagine.....

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by Dottore

My guess is he was not. But that is irrelevant to my point.

I think it must be axiomatic that more people will be shot in road rage incidents in a jurisdiction where guns are freely available, than in a jurisdiction in which they are are not. That was my only small point.

CC is not the issue. I'm sure there are my fine upstanding Texans with concealed handguns. Also: the few Canadian or UK examples dredged from the depths of the internet also don't alter this general proposition IMO.

There are a lot of maniacs out there. And maniacs are more dangerous with guns than without.

That said, we've already agreed in another thread that the situation in the US is entirely beyond redemption because of the number of guns in circulation. I even agreed that if I lived in the US, I would be armed to the teeth most of the time.

But imagine.....

I could imagine a US where only good, licensed people and law enforcement officers have guns. I'm doing it right now. Awesome.

But I could also imagine a unicorn. I'm doing that right now. Hee hee, cute little fellow!

As you state, there are millions and millions of guns in the US, and always will be. The right to bear arms is a Constitutional right. Guns will ALWAYS be "freely available" in the US, to anyone who has any interest in getting one.

Real world policy making has to deal with real world facts, not "imagining" things.

[flatbutt]

Dottore, yes...a world with zero firearms would be safer. But that genie was let out so long ago only the most Draconian measures will get it back in. This is the society we have and we deal with it...every day. If the RoW wants to criticize us for it and feel superior because of it so be it.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by McLovin

Real world policy making has to deal with real world facts, not "imagining" things.

I worked in the real world all of my life.

IMO one of the problems in the real world is that many people making policy completely lack imagination.

Do I need to quote John Lennon again?

[McLovin]

I think the opposite, too many US policy makers have too much "imagination."

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by Dottore

But imagine.....

Yes, by all means, imagine.

The myopic ******* mind spends a great deal of time in dumb, impractical, fruitless meanderings, doesn't it?

Did anyone just hear John Lennon's ghost fart? Or was it a burp? (Edit... yes, I did... see Dotto's post above that occurred while I was typing this... too funny.)

bijuv, sorry to hear of your BIL losing his best friend.

It's a shame DottoIdiotto felt like he had to use your thread to spew his cheap, pie-in-the-sky views.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

It's a shame DottoIdiotto felt like he had to use your thread to spew his cheap, pie-in-the-sky views.

Yes, it's a shame. And in contrast to your very insightful post above.

[pwd72s]

To repeat: A tragic happening. My sympathy to the friends and relatives of the victim. I hope they catch the bad guys.

[Heel n Toe]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Yes, it's a shame. And in contrast to your very insightful post above.

Very predictable deflection by a self-admitted serious drinker who idolizes the likes of John Lennon. And Hunter Thompson.

Ah, such fun.

But by all means, keep spewing... and imagining.

[1990C4S]

I am imagining the gun vs. no gun argument being decided once and for all by this thread....

[carlosR]

What the hell is wrong with people that they would shoot and kill someone over this? I don't get it, maybe that's why I have a concealed carry permit. I can't understand these people but I know they are out there. Hope they catch them.

[s_morrison57]

I have to agree with dottore on this one but thats not what the thread is about, its a senseless death and for what - a driving infraction, regarless of location its just a shame that people have to take it to this level because of someone elses driving.
condolences to that man's family and friends

[Superman]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

It's just beyond my comprehension that anyone could get this pissed off at another guy in traffic. Especially two someones, complicit in such an act. Unbelieveable.

I'm as guilty as anyone of honking and flipping off the occasional ass hat. Nothing more than I would do face to face, on a more personal level, if someone chose to be equally rude to me outside of their cars. Most won't, of course - there is something about the anonymity of traffic (or the internet, for that matter) that seems to bring out the worst behavior in people. I know I need to just ignore this behavior and not escalate it with a response (on the road or the internet...), and I'm working on it. At least no one can shoot me through my computer, yet...

I did actually have a guy chase after me about a decade ago. I guess I more or less "started it" by flipping him off over my shoulder. I was in the carpool lane, on my bike, in rush hour traffic. Guy pulls up behind me in his lifted psuedo monster truck, and climbs right up my ass. There is nowhere to go, with traffic in the other lanes backing up and going much slower than the diamond lane, and a line of cars right in front of me in it. Guy creeps closer and closer, flashing his high beams at me, so I did the right thing - I flipped him off.

Now he backs off a bit, but only to take a run at me. I honestly think he was trying to hit me. I dove into a gap in the fast lane, hit the brakes, and he went sailing by and swerved into it in front of me, then tried to brake check me - full lockup, tire smoke, the whole deal. WTF? I went around him, and the chase was on through the now breaking up traffic. At the next backup (at the next interchange) I split lanes to get the hell out of there. He went on the shoulder to try to keep up. Luckily, about half a mile further on, we went over an overpass that was too narrow for shoulders and he had to fall back in line. Pretty damn fightening.

Anyway, I just don't get it. How can someone get so pissed off over traffic? To fire out their windows, or to use their vehicle as a weapon, just defies my understanding. Traffic can really suck, yeah, but the rest of us deal with it.

I'm guessing you were not armed at the time? Quite frankly, while I believe in the principle of avoiding danger whenever possible, if a lifted pickup truck driver were as enraged and bent on killing me on a motorcycle as this guy sounds, and if I were armed, I would be tempted to stop, hop a jersey barrier and put my hand on a stock.