No FAA thread? Big doin's today.

[jjone20]

Hank Krakowski (ATO COO) resigned over multiple events of controllers sleeping on the job. Just want to see what the opinion is. Hank was an airline vet and took on a difficult job. I didn't agree with all of his changes, but I think he was the lamb led to the slaughter.

[widgeon13]

Are they firing the ATC personnel as well, or are those azzhats protected by the unions?

[jjone20]

Excellent question! My guess is that the management employees, of which the DCA person was one, will be sacked. The bargaining unit members involved in similar incidents will be "retrained".

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by jjone20

Excellent question! My guess is that the management employees, of which the DCA person was one, will be sacked. The bargaining unit members involved in similar incidents will be "retrained".

That's a problem with unions. They tend to support bad behavior on the part of employees. If they stood for employee responsibility it would be easier to support them. I think unions are important to our economy, but it ticks me off that they try to defend blatant misconduct.

[widgeon13]

Now they're blaming it all on rotating shift schedule and how the atc personnel never get adequate rest because of this schedule.

[Embraer]

there is scientific proof that counter-clockwise rotating schedules promote fatigue. adding more controllers late at night is not the answer. taking proactive scheduling measures to prevent fatigue would be a solution.

what's funny, is that the (mis)informed public worries about ATC. what they need to be worried about are pilot fatigue issues. If a controller falls asleep, planes land. If a pilot falls asleep, planes crash.

Fatigue played a major part in Colgan 3407, Comair 191, KAL 801, et al. It's not just airlines. in 2004, a med evac flight smacked into a mountain outside of san diego. the ntsb used this as a case study for fatigue and human performance.

Lawmakers need to worry about putting more restrictions on duty times for pilots.

[romad]

Obviously these towers could close at night. Major safety problem? Sad the pilots get no credit here. Like planes are all of the sudden going to start falling out the sky or crashing into each other, because some moron is sleeping in the TOWER.

[jjone20]

Controllers like schedules that give them a long weekend. 2-2-1 it's called; 2 nights, 2 days and a mid. You get off at 0600 on Friday (or whatever day of the week) and don't have to be back until 1430 on Monday. Attempts to fix this by some in FAA management have met with resistance by you know who. The real fix would be all nights, all days, or all mids. But that runs into issues of premium pay equity for night shifts. The argument that "the FAA assigns shifts that encourage fatigue" is completely disingenuous. I sympathize with pilots because 8 hours from hotel door close to hotel door open 8 hours later does not allow for time to unwind. But they do bid their schedules, right?

[Embraer]

well, i've seen the scheduling from both sides of the fence, because i've done both jobs. as for the pilots bidding their schedules, yes, they do. however....a schedule will be "legal" on paper (which still takes in account up to a 15 hour duty day). a guy might be scheduled the max of 8 hours of flight time, but when you consider sitting around for a 3-4 hour sit between flights, weather or maintenence delays, you can easily pop into a 15 hour day. there are extremely complex compensatory rest rules that must be followed, but again, "rest" is when you're not flying an airplane. "rest" is when you're waiting 45 minutes for the hotel van to pick you up, checking in, undressing, brushing teeth, etc. there were nights where you'd get 4-5 hours of sleep and then be back at it the next day, for another full day of it.

As for ATC, not everybody works a 2-2-1 schedule. some guys work 5 straight days, some nights, some do 4 ten hour days, etc. i work 2 afternoons, and then 3 day shifts. done at 1500 on sunday, go back to work at 1500 on wednesday.

again, the public needs to be concerned with pilot schedules and fatigue issues.

[jjone20]

Yes, indeed. Not everyone works a 2-2-1. But everyone in ATC does bid their schedule, so they know what they are going to be working. So on your quick turn day (night to day) do you stay out, or do you get to bed to get up at 6. See, I don't dispute the science on fatigue, but I think in the ATC world much of it is self inflicted. As for pilots, I think they get hosed by company on a regular basis. The issue with pilots is, as far as I know, so many people are desperate to do the job that they will try and make anything work to get their hours - a la Buffalo. And the companies have taken advantage of that. Especially the RJ folks. Mike, are you ATC now?

[Embraer]

as a pilot, we'd get as much rest as we could. the only time we'd go out was if we had a significant amount of time on an overnight. the term is called being a "slam clacker" (door slams, and door lock clacks...straight to bed)

on my quick turn for ATC, i go to bed. even then, your circadian rythem's are disrupted. so even though you get 8 hours of sleep, your body has a hard time adjusting. you're not tired that day, but the day after, you will be fatigued.

also, not all controllers bid their schedules. developmental controllers do not bid...they are assigned a schedule. a controller can be a developmental for up to 5 years if they're at a center. even at low traffic towers, it can take 2 years before you can bid a schedule.

I am ATC now (and i'm a developmental controller). I can say that there are different types of fatigue on both sides of the fence. After a long flying day, you were physically exhausted. after an 8 hour shift, at a level 12 center, your brain is fried. complete mental concentration. For the guys in a tower, fatigue can be caused by sitting around.

another thing to consider (as morbid as it sounds)....if a doctor is tired and accidentally kills a patient, it's one person. If a controller is tired, and puts two planes together, it's potentially hundreds of people.

[Embraer]

and yes...pilots do get hosed. before i left the airline, i was the department head of their flight training department. immediately after the colgan accident, i had to create a fatigue awareness program to present to the pilots (a directive from management)

...that same management repeatedly went against what was taught in the fatigue awareness, but by presenting it, they "checked the box" and were able to say that "all of our pilots are trained in the effects of fatigue on performance." sickening.

[jjone20]

Send me a PM if you like, I have some stories to tell. 29 years before the mast, so to speak, in both options (no flight service, thank god). With all do respect, as a developmental, especially at Palmdale, you have to rise to the occasion. I did it in '82, and you can, too. Not everybody can do the job, and if we make it easy, we get what we deserve.

[Embraer]

pm sent

[djmcmath]

I've done rotating shift work, and it's a bear. 7 days of days, 7 days of swings, 7 days of mids, then "t-week," a sort of week of "normal" days. 12 on, 12 off. I also did a routine with 6 hours on, 12 hours off, which really screws with you, especially when you don't actually get to be "off" during the 12 "off" hours. If you don't get screwed up doing rotating shift work, there's something wrong with you.

And that makes ATC an interesting problem: you've got to man the towers at night, too. So you can either find people who want to give up the normal sane life of human beings and be consigned to night shift work forever, or find people who are willing to give up the sanity of a normal schedule and do rotating shift work. Both options are bad.

Dan