IMS Failure
 

Reading the latest articles in Excellence about the IMS failures in almost all engines since water cooling :D , i began to wonder how really prevalent it is? You have to think if there are companies that would build systems to alert you to upcoming failures due to metal in the oil, it's got to be a big issue.

If it's this bad and a fundamental design flaw, why wouldn't Porsche fix it, unless it's not that common and all hype. I know Porsche is famous for not fixing flaws (cough...Cayenne coolant tubes....cough), but surely if it spans multiple engines, they would recall for it? No?

How many f you have had it and on what car?

It seems like each newer Porsche I look at as the possibility of the "dreaded issue"

Bob

Interested in the responses. My sense is that it happens occasionally but not often.

Bad news always travels loudest and fastest.

I'm sure there is an accurate percentage rate out there. .05% is my guess. That isn't based on any known facts just a guess.

Wayne is making a IMS kit...ask him, on cayman boxster forum they say to buy 2009--on ... here's some reading on IMS I've posted before but...http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html another...http://forums.pelicanparts.com/boxster-cayman-forum/656349-anothe-ims-save.html more...http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997/159951-intermediate-shaft-failure.html

The Rennlist 996 forum, which is very active, devotes quite a bit of bandwidth to the subject, but the accepted rate seems to be somwhere around maybe 5%.

On a personal note, I've owned a 2000 996 for six years and have used it as a daily driver (still do). It has 132,300 miles and counting. In the six years I've owned it, I've logged roughly 95,000 miles in it. It has been supremely reliable. I replaced my clutch at about 110,000 miles, and while I was in there, had the IMS bearing and flange replaced with the LN Engineering version for peace of mind. Interestingly, when the original was pulled, it was perfect.

I had a high-miles early 996 that was on its second engine, (don't know what happened to the first one). I'm pretty sure that the 2nd one had way over 100k on it and it was still perfect in every way. If you did the upgraded IMS bearing like 450 knot, those motors are basically about as temperamental as a Toyota 22R or an old Mercedes diesel. Even w/o the upgrade, they might go forever.

you do see lots of boxsters and early 996's with toasted engines for sale. perhaps craigslist and ebay tend to attract the sellers of toasted-engined cars...so it appears that it happens a lot.

Has the first small block Chevy engine swap been done on a 996 yet? It would not surprise me a bit....

There is a former P-car owner on the Bullitt board who gave up P-cars...he
suffered three engine failures in two different Boxsters.

Guess I was lucky...I figured if I was going to buy a water cooled car, I'd buy one that's always been water cooled. ;)

Rebel now has a kit for the 996. They also have an electrical solution so everything works as it should. (Gauges etc)

Now on my 4th 986/996, I've done a lot of research on the topic. It appears to be very rare but hard to quantify with a number. Remember that forums tend to attract problems, far less people join just to discuss how reliable their cars are. Porsche made gradual improvements over time, so ideally just buy the newest car you can afford. With that said, I've owned a first year 996 and wouldn't hesitate to do so again.

Rare? One person experiences 2 failures and you call it rare? I sold my last Porsche because I feared such a failure. The person who eventually had the mentioned failures said I was "over reacting". He said it really wasn't that much of a problem. He and I both drive Mustangs now. And he is singing a different tune.
It's not that they had a problem. It's that they took so long to fix it.

It's more common than Porsche will ever admit. How many many businesses world wide are fixing these engines?

Why doesn't Porsche fix the problem once and for all?

Personally I'm very disappointed with Porsche. It took them a long time to build a reputation for reliability and build quality and then this happens.
Meanwhile the owner of a local independent Porsche workshop told me he's been seeing more and more Cayennes coming in for major engine repairs.

All of this is good news for anyone who owns an air cooled Porsche. It will only be a few years before the humble 911 SC will be worth more than any water cooled Porsche.

Man, I was hoping for a good thread on hierarchical databases...

One data point doesn't equal a statistical representation.

I love the old cars as well, but what part of pulled head studs, premature valve seal wear, exploding airboxes, grinding 915 gearboxes, etc do you not understand? It's not uncommon for an air cooled 911 to need a full $10k rebuild at 100k miles but you claim they are more reliable? These are Porsches, not Hondas. Regardless of what you buy there is always the possibility of expensive maintenance. Frankly I have seen far more 100k+ water cooled cars for sale that are on their original motors than the older cars. If you're sweating the IMS issues then get the updated aftermarket kit for $500 and you're good to go.

How many open spots need to be in the revolver before you'd play Russian roulette?

In 2 years I have seen about 10 come through our shop with failed ims bearings..........all boxsters..........there is little warning........so it is not a farce.....and no warning.....

I don't know how rare it is, all I know is that it happened to my 2007 Targa 4S at about 18,000 miles. The dealer fixed it under warranty. Interestingly, they took all sorts of photos and talked to some higher ups and rebuilt the engine, rather than replace it. Total bill for the rebuild was around $11,800 as I recall. Not sure if that reflects what I would have had to pay if the car were out of warranty.

Porsche finally gave up on the IMS in 2009 997.2's, I think.

The engine failed with no warning (sort of - see below) - a sound from the back like a belt being mangled, warning/charging lights flashing, and power steering failure - luckily just a few blocks from home. Flatbed to the dealer (nearby, but the drive belt runs the water pump).

After talking with the techs, they asked it there had been a more lumpy idle or out of balance sensation at idle. I think perhaps there was, because I remember thinking something felt a little weird at startup in the days before, but it was subtle and wasn't severe enough to cause worry.

Ha!
:D

The IMS is the potential weak spot in what is an otherwise VERY robust engine. The problem is simple to fix and is inexpensive.

Oh, and by the way, my wife owns a 987 Cayman, with the same basic bearing. She's driven it 60,000 miles and five years. No issues. So, between the two cars, with the 110,000 miles on the original bearing of my 996, and the 60,000 miles on her Cayman, we've had 170,000 trouble free miles.

But yea, the air cooled cars are completely trouble free. Always have been. Right? Hmm. Well, most every 3.2 I know of, including mine, needed a top overhaul because of worn valve guides at 120,000 miles. Expensive repair. The head studs are a known issue with SC's. Oh, and lets not forget the cam chain tensioners in the air cooled engines that would fail without any apparent warning, destroying these very expensive engines. It took Porsche 20 years - from 1964 to 1984 - to finally come up with a viable solution. Twenty years!! So yea, those air cooled engines have always been, ahem, bullet proof. Yeaaaaaa.

Hey, I'm happy to be on the dark side....nevermore will my shadow darken a Porsche dealership or shop door...:rolleyes:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1328809015.jpg

I work at a dealership and we really do not see it that often. I can only remember 2 M96 type engine failures last year and only one of those was IMS, and that was a Boxster/Tiptronic with over 170k on the clock. The other was an 02 996 Tiptronic that had timing chain failure. The other dealership on this property is an Infiniti store and I see more failed engines in their NEWER cars with LESS miles.

05 Boxster toasted IMS bearing and know of 3 others in Chicago. A highly succesfull model for Porsche but off hand don't know the annual selling stats. Probably a very low percentage of failures. What your beginning to see are cars now coming off warrantees but prior to, many already had replaced motors. Many threads about it and too much to start on the technical or reasons why here. Regardless, a terrific car and bargain priced today.

I must say that I am happily addicted to my 2001 Boxster base. I have had installed the IMS guardian and so in theory I should get some warning of an implosion. Will install the ln ceramic ims bearing in the next year or so. There is so much info on ims/rms failures that there is no excuse not to know about Porsche failings(especially the Boxster ims) before u buy one. I drive the snot out of it traffic permitting out in the country. Cant wait for spring. Buyer beware!:eek:

Have you ever seen the movie "Class Action"? The plot is a suit against a car manufacturer for a defect that makes the car unsafe. The lawyer representing the car company discovers the flaw is real for a percentage of the run, but it was determined that the cost of a lawsuit and potential settlement was less than the expense of fixing the issue, so they didn't bother.

Porsche didn't fix the defect because it was more expensive than simply replacing the engines that fail within the warranty period, even at $15k a pop for engine and labor.

Bingo! EP nailed it! Porsche has been run by the bean counters for quite some time.

Porsche honored its warrantee and thats all as expected. Although I know were not relating the IMS failure as a safety issue so why the discussion of class action? Surely no one is ever happy of the crappy, and next time might not consider the brand. Thats the owners choice only and unless its considered a safety issue, then the lawyers could hawk in. If the thinking of a class action suit is acceptable practice for every common failure (non-related safety), then in time most company's would cease to exist.

If someone is really not feeling lucky, buy a used Boxster or 996 for the bargain basement price and invest $500 into the upgraded IMS bearing. Taking the transmission out of a 996 is child's play, not sure about the Boxster. (Mid-engine).

I know a guy who has a gold chain melted into his collarbone from being hit by lightning. Thing that almost killed him was drowning in the 6 inch deep puddle he happened to land in, dumb luck. Jogger saw it happen and rolled him over, saved his life.

That is why I bought a turbo miata for a daily driver. For some time, IMHO, BMW and Porsche have not been engineered and built as well as they once were.

Will eventually get a Boxter or Cayman, without a doubt. If it has a motor that works, will do the IMS replacement, if not, look for a crashed 911 and swap it, though I understand that is high on the difficulty level scale.

I already have a project that I don't have enough time to work on, so that is down the road. I will probably end up buying an air cooled SC or Carrera. I just don't think the air cooled cars are equaled by the water pumpers. I know many or most might disagree, especially if I say something like that over in Rennland.

Statistical fluxuation and dependant events. No one really knows but this
poor beaten and now dead horse is probably 1 out of 20 996 M96 engines.
Pretty much everyone doesn't care anymore because these cars are old and
only 5% had design RMS/IMS flaws.
The next time an owner replaces the clutch they have the oppertunity to upgrade the Intermediate bearing. You do it.
The great advantage of the potential financial hardship is that owners are
almost giving away the 996.
I jumped on board and got one with 70K. Very inexpensive.
80K on it now and no problemos.
The IMS Guardian is another solution but is way overpriced.
Change your oil often... Slice open your oil filter and inspect it for small metal
fragments.

I have a Porsche repair shop in Ct. We have approx 530 cars in our fleet with the m96/97 eng
Of those cars we have replaced 6 engines so our experience has been slightly more then 1%
Generally speaking we have found these cars to be very dependable

Porsche makes WATER COOLED cars????When did this happen?

Please find me a high end sports car that doesn't have at least one weak point. Actually, find me another high end sports car with a demonstrated record of reliability that is better than a 996/986. NSX immediately comes to mind, but they're more than the average 996/986 as well.

This. Funny how these threads always attract the fanatics that think Porsche development peaked with their 1984 Carrera. I love the older cars but there's also something to be said for a newer model that is faster, handles better, is more comfortable, has working HVAC, and just as much charm as my long hood. Oh yeah, and just as cheap as said Carrera to purchase.

You could argue that an engine that suddenly fails with little warning is in fact a safety issue.

"Class Action" was the name of the movie, but my post was just referring to the rationale given for the plot, not a call for a lawsuit. Porsche didn't fix the problem because it was cheaper for them not to and while we may not like that attitude, it's part of why the company made record profits, along with new models like the Cayenne and Panamera.

The only way all this will impact Porsche is if new car buyers are put off by the poor resale and avoid the brand, which doesn't appear to be happening. People afraid to buy 10-year old cars doesn't bother them in the slightest.

Not the IMS but here is one for another well known issue.

Cayenne Class Action

So a general rule would be to buy 2009+ for a water pumper to make sure. Avoiding any IMS RMS problems?

Or buy an older one for 25% of the price and spend the money to update the IMS if you're really concerned. Speaking of RMS, of my four water pumpers my current 2003 is the first one to have any RMS seepage. It currently seeps just enough to be moist on the bottom, not enough to drip on the floor. OH THE HORROR! Per the service records it has had a slight seep for the last 25k miles or so, but it doesn't seem to be getting any worse.

Coming from someone that has upgraded to turbo valve covers and different oil return tubes on an air cooled 911 and still not fixed all the leaks, my current RMS "issue" doesn't have me too concerned.:cool:

Why doesn't Porsche simply fix the IMS issue?

Thanks for the input guys, so good insight, i wish i had real stats though. Let me make one clarification though, to the guys who think it's just older boxsters, or 996's, it's not it's been around that long, but it happens to boxsters, 996's, caymas and 997's hence my question about carrying the issue forward not just through simuar models, but across model lines.

As well are the aftermarket fixes really a fix? Or has it ever happened aft the fix?


So i should take a dip into the water cooled pool eh? :D