Solar power

[svandamme]

i've got on grid, 3400 Watt peak. which should just about produce my own needs.
It was subsidized and with tax breaks.. basically 10500 euro investment
of which about 5630 is subsides on year 1.
so on top of that i get free electricity, and another 19 years of subsidizing, 270 euro per 1000 kwh.. On top of the free electricity .. my ROI is 4.5 years. It's was no brainer for me.

[mikehinton]

To answer the question of the amount that the taxpayers (including me) subsidized, it was 30% of the total installation cost, or about $7,000. In my view, cheap in comparison with building additional power plants (which is damn near impossible in NIMBY-ized California).

[RWebb]

I get charged transmission costs - it makes sense to charge for that as somebody has to maintain the lines.

Coal is the dirtiest fuel out there - besides the carbon emissions, huge amounts of toxic mercury are released into the atmosphere from burning coal. It goes into the oceans and is the main reason that eating (some) fish by a woman can damage her unborn child. China is the big culprit for coal.


For solar, consider the aspect angle of the panels, shading by trees, etc. and the benefit or detriment of shading the roof from sunlight.

In some places, you can lease your roof space to a company to install panels on, and this may make a system viable economically, which would otherwise not be.

[URY914]

For the roof mounted systems you also need to think about the cost to remove the panels to reroof when the time comes and the leaks as a result of the panel supports penatrating the roof membrane.

[john70t]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Coal is the dirtiest fuel out there - besides the carbon emissions, huge amounts of toxic mercury are released into the atmosphere from burning coal.

[green]RWebb, as Red-beard mentioned there are new environmental standards for coal.

Using air-injection in the stacks, modern coal burning facilities can reduce these harmful emissions down to .00048 ppm.
The solution to pollution is dillution. [/green]

[svandamme]

good thingyou used sarcasm green , almost missed it and was ready to talk smack about the dilution theory.

[john70t]

Why don't they have a system for collecting that mercury and/or heavy metals?
There is money there.
Those are valuable materials.
Same with the recycling of batteries and electronics(and solar panels).

Solar tech is advancing exponentially.
It is understandable that companies would not want to spend $XX/XXX,000 today, when a system twice as efficient and half the price might be available tomorrow.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by john70t

Why don't they have a system for collecting that mercury and/or heavy metals?
There is money there.
Those are valuable materials.
Same with the recycling of batteries and electronics(and solar panels).

Solar tech is advancing exponentially.
It is understandable that companies would not want to spend $XX/XXX,000 today, when a system twice as efficient and half the price might be available tomorrow.

They do. They use sodium bicarbonate in the smaller plants and a wet spray process in the larger plants. It also pulls the sulfur-dioxide out of the emissions as well.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by john70t

[green]RWebb, as Red-beard mentioned there are new environmental standards for coal.

Using air-injection in the stacks, modern coal burning facilities can reduce these harmful emissions down to .00048 ppm.
The solution to pollution is dillution. [/green]

I'm aware of that. Unfortunately, the new stds. still leave coal as the dirtiest fuel out there (barring the risk of something horrible happening with nuclear power, and that likelihood is remote).

We ought to (and likely will) use natural gas as a transitional fuel until we get solar going strong in some future decade.

Another issue with coal is that China and other users are not adhering to virtually any cleaner technologies, and their pollution pollutes us.

Finally, none of the technologies reduce carbon emissions.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by URY914

For the roof mounted systems you also need to think about the cost to remove the panels to reroof when the time comes and the leaks as a result of the panel supports penatrating the roof membrane.

Xlnt point - when I looked into solar panels, I was told to wait until it was time to re-roof the house. (My flat-roofed house is unusually expensive to have solar panels installed on however. But... we get some of the highest subsidies to install here.)

[dhoward]

Originally Posted by dmcummins

Ive looked into it, but with electricity at .08 and no subsides in MO it doesn't make sense. I just invest in the local power plant that pays about 5% dividends. I may go with a solar water heater at some point, I think the payback is a little better with that.

Can't you just run an extension cord from Portage?

[dennis in se pa]

It will be interesting to watch this play out.

Solar? Wind? Tides? I wondered as a child why the power of the ocean was not used for something. And it is constant. Solar will become like Moore's Law of computers. The panels will become efficient and cheap. And no transmission costs will cause them to win out along with wind power.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by dennis in se pa

It will be interesting to watch this play out.

Solar? Wind? Tides? I wondered as a child why the power of the ocean was not used for something. And it is constant. Solar will become like Moore's Law of computers. The panels will become efficient and cheap. And no transmission costs will cause them to win out along with wind power.

But, they do not work at night. So you also need storage.

The reason Solar is cheap right now is that a lot of panels are on the market and there just aren't any buyers. Companies are going bankrupt, and the panels they have in stock are being sold for pennies on the dollar.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by dennis in se pa

I wondered as a child why the power of the ocean was not used for something.

How much power is there in the tides? The few places it work have very special characteristics which accentuate the tidal difference. Ultra-low head hydro isn't going to power the world.

I calculated the amount of solar panels needed to power the world. It worked out to something like 100-120 mile wide swath of panels around the equator. This does not take into account transmission losses, but does take into account that the most inexpensive panels are only about 10% efficient.

If you can fit a 1500 MW nuclear plant into 1/2 mile x 1/2 mile, and we need about 500 nuclear plants to cover our electricty needs, we can fit these easily in a about 11 miles by 11 miles. We use about 20% of the worlds energy, so you can fit the worlds energy needs using nuclear fission into an area of about 25 miles by 25 miles. That is about the size of the area inside the beltway...

Can you think of a better use for Washington DC?

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by red-beard

But, they do not work at night. So you also need storage.

The reason Solar is cheap right now is that a lot of panels are on the market and there just aren't any buyers. Companies are going bankrupt, and the panels they have in stock are being sold for pennies on the dollar.

The "storage" on my system at my mountain home is about $195 per battery and the first set lasted about three years before they started to drop off. This summer I'm going to need another pallet of batteries delivered by freight, and a pallet taken away as well. (big bucks getting that up my road)

If it were not for the fact that we lose power a lot in the mountains the system would be an amazing hole in the wallet. Right now it's just a big hole in the wallet. I also need to get an expert in this summer to "hail proof" my panels as we lost a few last year.

Such is the price for a vacation home I suppose. But my real question, Red, are re-conditioned batteries worth it? The price drops to about $50/ battery; of course delivery is still painful.

[john70t]

Scott R, three year is f'n pathetic. My electric toothbrush is going on 10 years and has been abused.

There may be a flaw in the charging/regulatory system which is ending those batteries early. Lead-acid(and most batteries) do better when they remain near fully charged with the temperature constant and a light load.

Look into A123 and others. They are a big name and do large scale projects. It might be worth spending more for a warentee and peace of mind.
There are several Lithium Ion variations, some of which have excellent specs.

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by john70t

Scott R, three year is f'n pathetic. My electric toothbrush is going on 10 years and has been abused.

There may be a flaw in the charging/regulatory system which is ending those batteries early. Lead-acid(and most batteries) do better when they remain near fully charged with the temperature constant and a light load.

Look into A123 and others. They are a big name and do large scale projects. It might be worth spending more for a warentee and peace of mind.
There are several Lithium Ion variations, some of which have excellent specs.

I have a PM going with Red about this. The manufacturer is thinking that the constant subzero exposure is a factor. To keep things to "code" in my county you use an enclosure that's vented, however it's external (but attached) to the house since my cabin doesn't have a basement.

[red-beard]

I'm thinking that you should be using some of your juice to keep the cells warm. Insulation and a hazardously rated heating system.

[john70t]

^This. Batteries(containing water especially) should not be allowed to freeze.

If insulated with foam, the shed will probably have to have an interior shell which is resistant to both sulfuric acid and fire, perhaps stainle$$.

There should also be an external shutoff, as well as a diode or two to keep it from backfeeding into the county lines and frying working linesmen during an outage.

Mabye it can be buried below the frost line in a concrete pit with passive vent lines?
Concrete leaches heat from the interior into the 4ft of frozen ground and should be insulated on the outside.
Below that, it is a constant 50deg or so.

[RWebb]

storage...

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