Lance Armstrong again...

[stuartj]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I guess the next question then would be "why would that even be considered 'news'?"

Really, the whole world of spectator sport - both amateur anrofessional - is so sullied by the money involved and the excesses that money encourages that I'm surprised anyone holds any interest at all anymore.

Some guy cheated to win a bike race? They might not let them race bikes at the Olympics anymore? Yawn... I'm going for a drive...

All true jeff. but the idea of a major olympic sport been thrown out over a drug scandal is still probably newsworthy for some. enjoy your drive, I'm off to do 50kms on my bike

[mikesride]

I can't ignore all the good he has also done....but this sure makes him look like a first class A-hole. I am one of those on this very forum that said "no way, he's innocent". Well, looks like I was wrong .

[tevake]

It was easy to be deceived. I remember during one of his last TDF wins the commentators were going on and on about the research showing L A's almost super human physical characteristics, extreme oxygen uptake, elimination of lactic acid, lung capacity, etc.
Were they trying to convince them selves or the listeners?

All of that plus his constant denile, straight into the face or camera. were quite convincing.

It was a great ride while it lasted. I think that most other competitors were doping also, but that still doesn't make it right.
I kind of like the idea that was brought up earlier. Make two classes, clean, and unlimited.

[Halm]

Originally Posted by tevake

I kind of like the idea that was brought up earlier. Make two classes, clean, and unlimited.

I really hope you were joking. Otherwise, what is the point of "sport?"

[Laneco]

Originally Posted by mikesride

I can't ignore all the good he has also done....but this sure makes him look like a first class A-hole. I am one of those on this very forum that said "no way, he's innocent". Well, looks like I was wrong .

I'm in the same boat... I've always been a staunch supporter. Without question, Armstrong is genetically gifted, unbelieveably determined, and completely focused in his training. Completely.

Unfortunately, that did involve PED. I denied, refused to believe it, etc., until George Hincappie came forward. His testimony is the one that changed my mind. I went from NO WAY to oh gawd....

As far as this confession goes, I'll take it with a grain of salt. I do believe in forgiveness - that people can genuinely screw up a SIGNIFICANT number of things and still become decent human beings.

If we are willing to let those who commit assault, rape, drive drunk and kill people to serve their time and with good behavior, be considered guardedly "forgiven" maybe that is also reasonable accommodation for someone who doped.

Make him do his sanctions and then move on. No more, no less.

angela

[tevake]

Where has the sport been in Baseball, Biking, football, etc. for all of these years. Actually most of our adult years and I'm over 60yo. Even while I was in High school there were steroids present around the locker rooms.

So how do we proceed with this history? Thats where the two classes came from.

Yes, I was somewhat joking, kinda.

Cheers Richard

[Halm]

Originally Posted by tevake

So how do we proceed with this history? Thats where the two classes came from.
Cheers Richard

Actually, that is pretty easy. We as a society can not tolerate cheaters at any level. We stop saying "so & so" was pretty good before he/she started doing 'roids or whatever.

In Lances case I hope the Fed's come after him with all barrels blazing. We must do something to make sure that those tempted to join the cheaters stay clean.

[nostatic]

He's flawed. Quite a human trait. He's just an over-achiever.

[Halm]

Todd, with all due respect. You are right that he is flawed like all humans. But he is also a cheater of the highest magnitude. Does he deserve our forgiveness? Absolutely if he sincerely asks for it. But he is still forever a cheater.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by Halm

Todd, with all due respect. You are right that he is flawed like all humans. But he is also a cheater of the highest magnitude. Does he deserve our forgiveness? Absolutely if he sincerely asks for it. But he is still forever a cheater.

Like I said, he's an overachiever. Everyone cheats in life in some way. Most of us it is just little things - traffic laws, tax deductions, etc. I am sickened by what it appears he did (the intimidation). I am still slackjawed at his athletic accomplishments as sadly he was competing on a level playing field. I also believe that he was a force for good and inspired many cancer victims and survivors. So it is more complicated than typical athlete cheating situations.

This is one reason I don't watch any professional sports any more except for F1. I think they all cheat in some way, and the meaning of "sport" is completely lost on this generation of athlete and fan.

[Halm]

This is complicated and a forum may not be the best place t debate it. And L A's cancer foundation did / does do a tremendous good.

But I'll back out of this now with just one more question: How many "clean" cyclists did really well and we never heard about them because L A and others were pumped up on 'roid's, EPO's, "The Clear" or whatever was his PED of the day?

[nostatic]

We'll never know. Because all the top contenders were cheating.

I'm not condoning what he did in any way, shape, or form. But I think some of the piling on can be hypocritical or at least is happening around some glass houses.

I used to race bicycles. I got caught up in the mtn bike craze of the late 80's and raced both road and mountain (cat 3 road, sport class mtn). I *loved* the sport, and remember watching LeMond and his heroics. Then later Armstrong. I was a spectator and competitor (until a training crash in '92 ended my serious riding). Cheating disgusts me. But I recognize that it is pretty much part of the game. Look at football - every lineman cheats on every play. It is just a question of whether or not they get penalized.

It is a complicated topic. I used to love playing sports, and by extension, watching sports. I was a decent athlete, but never competed at top levels so that type of cheating wasn't on my radar. But even city league softball had cheaters. And poor sports. At some point professional sports began to breed poor sports by the truckload. Not sure when it started, but certainly the last few decades have been ugly. Yes, there were cheaters and poor sports way back when (Ty Cobb comes to mind - he loved to go in spikes up when sliding). But it wasn't institutionalized, in part because there wasnt the amount of money and celebrity associated with it. So to distill it down, to me $ is to blame. And greed is another human failing...

[Rich76_911s]

Moving up the chain:
New Twist in Armstrong Saga - WSJ.com

[Don Ro]

Just heard that at one time LA offered USPS $5 M to drop their fraud lawsuit against him.
.
On Direct TV the interview begins on OWN Ch. 279 at 7 pm PT today.
.

[Sarc]

[Don Ro]

Do we think that the LA interview will save her failing network?
.
Mutual motives, I guess.
She gets the interview and he gets the softballs.

[kevin993]

The strategy seems pretty simple to me:

1) I just wanted to ride - everybody else that organized or administered the sport were responsible for the rules and testing. They did such an awful job that us riders couldn't be clean and complete. You can't really blame the teams and riders (and me) because we (I) had no choice.
2) The organizers had to know once riders started to use PEDs, but they had a good thing going. They had testing for PR purposes, but wanted us to keep our mouths shut to avoid upsetting their sport. If we said anything to upset the sport, they would find a way to use a negative test to ban us and we wouldn't be able to ride.
3) Since doping was permitted in the "real" rules, we had to make the best of those rules. We had sponsors to look after, employees to take care of and bills to pay - we had obligations, so we had no choice but to use PEDs if those were the "real" rules that the organizers and administrators were going to apply.
4) Yes, I gave reporters and whistle-blowers a hard time about PEDs, but I was just reflecting the pressure that I got from the organizers and administrators of the sport. They looked to me as a leader and I got caught up in enforcing the code of silence that was keeping the sport going.
5) Given all that, I was just doing the best I could in the context of a flawed sport. I didn't make the rules, but had to abide by the rules if I wanted to ride. Everybody else got so greedy.
6) In retrospect, I acknowledge that things happened and mistakes were made. Individual teams or riders aren't worth talking about because they (we) were all in a similar position. However, is there anybody in the organization or administration of the sport that you'd like me to talk about? They're the real culprits - us riders are just victims that got swept up in all the madness.

[lukeh]

He's a cheater and a liar.

However, if he didn't cheat I'm sure he never wins and loses to some other cheater. The sport is broke and these guys are in a no win situation. You have to pick between being a cheater or a loser. I know I'd have a tough time devoting my entire life to something knowing I will never be able to win a thing because of the cheating going on. Then you have to ask yourself if you want to be a cheater, loser or a quitter.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by kevin993

The strategy seems pretty simple to me:

1) I just wanted to ride - everybody else that organized or administered the sport were responsible for the rules and testing. They did such an awful job that us riders couldn't be clean and complete. You can't really blame the teams and riders (and me) because we (I) had no choice.
2) The organizers had to know once riders started to use PEDs, but they had a good thing going. They had testing for PR purposes, but wanted us to keep our mouths shut to avoid upsetting their sport. If we said anything to upset the sport, they would find a way to use a negative test to ban us and we wouldn't be able to ride.
3) Since doping was permitted in the "real" rules, we had to make the best of those rules. We had sponsors to look after, employees to take care of and bills to pay - we had obligations, so we had no choice but to use PEDs if those were the "real" rules that the organizers and administrators were going to apply.
4) Yes, I gave reporters and whistle-blowers a hard time about PEDs, but I was just reflecting the pressure that I got from the organizers and administrators of the sport. They looked to me as a leader and I got caught up in enforcing the code of silence that was keeping the sport going.
5) Given all that, I was just doing the best I could in the context of a flawed sport. I didn't make the rules, but had to abide by the rules if I wanted to ride. Everybody else got so greedy.
6) In retrospect, I acknowledge that things happened and mistakes were made. Individual teams or riders aren't worth talking about because they (we) were all in a similar position. However, is there anybody in the organization or administration of the sport that you'd like me to talk about? They're the real culprits - us riders are just victims that got swept up in all the madness.

Are you one of his lawyers? ;-)

This is exactly the narrative his defence will take.

When you have no defence, the best thing is always to point fingers wildly in every other possible direction and claim you are the victim.

[ZLP]

From a friend's facebook page:

Preliminary rules for the Lance vs Oprah interview. Thanks DC website

As none of us have actually seen the interview yet, there are still some things we can play with.

Preliminary matters:
- Immediately shotgun a beer if he is wearing yellow during the interview

Take one drink If Lance:
- says the word “cancer”
- says the word “hope”
- says the word “regret”
- says the word “lie”
- says the word “God”
- uses the phrase “everyone was doing it”
- blinks two or more times before responding to Oprah

Endurance drinking:
- Begin drinking at the first sign of tears forming in Lance Armstrong’s cold, dead eyes, and continue to drink until he stops crying. (This may require close proximity to backup drinks because, baby, here come the water works. See How to Cry On the Spot.)

Finish your drink if Lance says he regrets the way he treated:
- Greg Lemond
- Betsy Andreu
- Frankie Andreu
- Tyler Hamiltion
- Floyed Landis
- Filippo Simeoni
- Mike Anderson
- David Walsh
- Paul Kimmage
(There are so many, I had to stop the list. Please forgive any exclusions.)

Random rules:
- Snort a line of salt if he admits to perjury.
- Throw entire shot, beer, Bloody Mary, glass of Malbec over your shoulder if he blames Johann Bruyneel.