Please explain to me "My first gun."

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

And more BS.

NRA-ILA | Don't Believe Everything You Read

PolitiFact | Leffingwell says NRA members support background checks of all gun purchasers

[winders]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Too shay.

Seriously??

It's "touché".

Scott

[techweenie]

Oh gosh, really?

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by techweenie

So, deflection.

I guess you didn't like losing.

All transactions from an FFL to a private party require a 4473 and background check unless preempted by the purchaser having concealed carry permit, which in AZ requires fingerprinting and an in-depth FBI background check. These requirements exist even at gun shows. An FFL cannot sell a firearm without the 4473, background check (either via NICS or current CCP), logging the transaction, and storing that log per BATFE regulations. Period.

Every gun show I have been to in this state has had far more FFLs than private sales. Private sellers with the means ($) and need (significant collection for sale) to rent a table at at a gun show are in the minority.

Your assertion that "the majority of states waive any paperwork for gun show purchases" is absurd. You are FOS. Sales are either (a) a FFL-to-private-party transaction subject to the restrictions above, or (b) private-party-to-private-party which is legal whether at a gun show or in a 7-11 parking lot.

[winders]

Originally Posted by techweenie

Oh gosh, really?

Oh, I get it, you just play ignorant.....

Scott

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by techweenie

PolitiFact | Leffingwell says NRA members support background checks of all gun purchasers

Leffingwell? Who the hell is that? Where's his data?

The only person who knows the rolls of the NRA are the NRA. They do not release membership information. The only way to know if a poll of NRA members is accurate is if it has been conducted by the NRA.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by winders

Oh, I get it, you just play ignorant.....

He's not playing. Why isn't this PARF?

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Leffingwell? Who the hell is that? Where's his data?

The only person who knows the rolls of the NRA are the NRA. They do not release membership information. The only way to know if a poll of NRA members is accurate is if it has been conducted by the NRA.

It was a Johns Hopkins study that should have been linked.

Does the NRA agree with Wayne LaPierre?

I guess one difference we have is that I don't trust much of anything the NRA says, including the number of members it has.

Does the NRA really have more than 4.5 million members? - The Washington Post

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

All transactions from an FFL to a private party require a 4473 and background check unless preempted by the purchaser having concealed carry permit, which in AZ requires fingerprinting and an in-depth FBI background check. These requirements exist even at gun shows. An FFL cannot sell a firearm without the 4473, background check (either via NICS or current CCP), logging the transaction, and storing that log per BATFE regulations. Period.

Every gun show I have been to in this state has had far more FFLs than private sales. Private sellers with the means ($) and need (significant collection for sale) to rent a table at at a gun show are in the minority.

Your assertion that "the majority of states waive any paperwork for gun show purchases" is absurd. You are FOS. Sales are either (a) a FFL-to-private-party transaction subject to the restrictions above, or (b) private-party-to-private-party which is legal whether at a gun show or in a 7-11 parking lot.

So you say private sellers' presence at gun shows is small. And another poster here says it's 50% of vendors. And national media says it ranges around 40% of sellers.

The point is, they are not covered by federal law, and 33 states do not cover private sellers -- at gun shows or anywhere else. Which makes for a loophole.

None of these facts are deniable, so we're down to the number or percentage of private sellers at gun shows. And frankly, it doesn't make much difference, because as I said, in the majority of states, you can walk into a gun show and buy a gun without paperwork. All you have to do is deal with a private party.

Now, some gun shows have their own rules about legal compliance. Some offer 'instant check services.' Want to guess the percentage that don't allow unchecked sales? Not sure that info is out there, except from groups that are paid by one side or the other.

New York state investigators went to a gun show and engaged with private sellers saying they didn't think they could pass a background check. About 40% of the private sellers didn't want to do business with them.

I've never been to a gun show. I have no particular interest in doing so. And if I did, it would probably be in California, where things are more regulated. Not sure what that has to do with background check laws or marketing kiddie rifles.

The point is, my statement was correct. You owe me an apology.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by techweenie

It was a Johns Hopkins study that should have been linked.

Does the NRA agree with Wayne LaPierre?

Originally Posted by The Article

a poll released Monday by Johns Hopkins University’s Bloomberg School of Public Health. The survey found 89 percent of all Americans support the proposal. (The Johns Hopkins program has received financial support, and is named after, New York City mayor and gun control advocate Michael Bloomberg.)

Fail.

[techweenie]

I don't entirely disagree with your assessment. But that's what we have: a study from a "gun control group" and the word of the NRA. Pick your poison.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by techweenie

as I said, in the majority of states, you can walk into a gun show and buy a gun without paperwork

Really? That's what you said? Let's review:

Originally Posted by techweenie

the majority of states waive any paperwork for gun show purchases.

The point is, my statement was correct. You owe me an apology.

No, it isn't. And I don't, because you are still FOS.

[BlueSkyJaunte]

And while you're busy scouring the net for some more data to back up your fallacious assertions, don't forget to read this one as well:

Gun violence in US has fallen dramatically over past 20 years, Justice Dept. report finds - U.S. News

Originally Posted by The Article

As for where crime guns came from, the study notes that less than two percent of convicted inmates reported buying their weapons at gun shows or flea markets.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fv9311.pdf

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by BlueSkyJaunte

Really? That's what you said? Let's review:

No, it isn't. And I don't, because you are still FOS.

Yeah, well not the best wording, but the point is still valid.

33 states exercise no requirements for gun show registration (or any other private party gun sales).

If you assumed I meant the states somehow overruled the FFL dealer restrictions, well, that would be a fairly absurd interpretation on your part.

The point is and was that people can walk into a gun show in most states and walk out with a gun, not having gone through any background check. Pretty plain and simple.

And yes, lots of gun owners support the idea of closing the loophole, at least at gun shows. Just because trading weapons for cash in the 7-11 parking lot is legal most places doesn't mean we shouldn't check everywhere we can.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by techweenie

The point is and was that people can walk into a gun show in most states and walk out with a gun, not having gone through any background check. Pretty plain and simple.

And yes, lots of gun owners support the idea of closing the loophole, at least at gun shows. Just because trading weapons for cash in the 7-11 parking lot is legal most places doesn't mean we shouldn't check everywhere we can.

Man, you have really bought into the media's hype about background checks and the "gun show loophole." BlueSky and I have explained it here many times as clearly as it can be explained. The legality of private, face-face transactions in some states has nothing at all to do with gun shows. You can do those deals anywhere in states that allow them. Why wait for a gun show, pay the admission and parking fees, risk an ATF sting and brave the crowds? I've bought and sold guns at the corner gas station, a church parking lot, a K-Mart parking lot, private homes and one or two at gun shows, but far more at places other than gun shows.

Anyone who can't pass a NICS check is going to get their gun anyway. Have you ever heard a bad guy in a jailhouse interview say it was too hard to get a gun, so he used a knife or billy club?

Why do you have any faith in NICS checks anyway? Plenty of mass shooting nutbags have passed NICS checks with no problem. When's the last time you heard of a mass shooting done with a gun legally bought outside a NICS check?

[techweenie]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Man, you have really bought into the media's hype about background checks and the "gun show loophole." BlueSky and I have explained it here many times as clearly as it can be explained. The legality of private, face-face transactions in some states has nothing at all to do with gun shows. You can do those deals anywhere in states that allow them. Why wait for a gun show, pay the admission and parking fees, risk an ATF sting and brave the crowds? I've bought and sold guns at the corner gas station, a church parking lot, a K-Mart parking lot, private homes and one or two at gun shows, but far more at places other than gun shows.

Anyone who can't pass a NICS check is going to get their gun anyway. Have you ever heard a bad guy in a jailhouse interview say it was too hard to get a gun, so he used a knife or billy club?

Why do you have any faith in NICS checks anyway? Plenty of mass shooting nutbags have passed NICS checks with no problem. When's the last time you heard of a mass shooting done with a gun legally bought outside a NICS check?

How is this unclear?

"And yes, lots of gun owners support the idea of closing the loophole, at least at gun shows. Just because trading weapons for cash in the 7-11 parking lot is legal most places doesn't mean we shouldn't check everywhere we can."

The burden that it has to be a "mass shooting" is silly. And then of course quoting "isolated incidents" is silly. So do we just let guns trade as is?

I don't buy into the notion that everything is fine the way it is. Too many people are being shot in this country. And guns are several times more lethal than the other weapons you bring up.

[Rick Lee]

I couldn't care less how many gun owners support background checks. They don't lend any legitimacy to the argument.

The last gun my dad bought was about 15 yrs. before NICS was established. He has one gun left, so he's a gun owner, has never been through a NICS check and is one of those guys with the attitude, "It doesn't affect me, so I'm fine with it." There are many millions just like him. They have no idea what a background check really is, how ineffective they have been, how criminally negligent the feds have been in pursuing prohibited possessers who tried to buy from an FFL and then they hear "gun show loophole," know it has nothing to do with them and so they say, "what the hell?" Same thing with lifelong non-smokers not caring about a hike in the cigarette tax.

No crime has ever been prevented by a NICS check unless the perp happened to die or go to jail before he got the gun through other means. And you probably know that plenty of states don't require NICS checks for guns that are 100 yrs. old or more, or that you can get a C&R FFL for $50 and have C&R guns mailed right to your house sans NICS check or bound book. Do you know what kind of guns you can get with a C&R? Every gun Charles Whitman used. You should worry more about swimming pools, hammers and cars with cell phones. They are far more likley to touch the lives of someone you know.

[foxpaws]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

No crime has ever been prevented by a NICS check unless the perp happened to die or go to jail before he got the gun through other means. And you probably know that plenty of states don't require NICS checks for guns that are 100 yrs. old or more, or that you can get a C&R FFL for $50 and have C&R guns mailed right to your house sans NICS check or bound book. Do you know what kind of guns you can get with a C&R? Every gun Charles Whitman used. You should worry more about swimming pools, hammers and cars with cell phones. They are far more likley to touch the lives of someone you know.

How do you know that ricky - the 'no crime has ever prevented by a NICS check'.

How many robbers are just robbers and not armed robbers because they know they can't get through an NICS check? Without a gun the autopsy of a robbery is often quite different than robberies committed with a gun.

I mean a blanket statement like that is pretty foolish.There is absolutely no way you or anyone could prove your statement.

I was also interested - lets say one of those 7-Eleven sales you made was to someone who wouldn't have passed an NCIS check (let's say a felon), and they went on to kill dozens of school children with the weapon you sold them. Do you just justify it as 'well if it wasn't me, it would have been someone else who sold them the gun?"

[BlueSkyJaunte]

Originally Posted by techweenie

If you assumed I meant the states somehow overruled the FFL dealer restrictions, well, that would be a fairly absurd interpretation on your part.

No, it is not an absurd interpretation. What you wrote is EXACTLY the kind of calculated LIE that is being continuously vomited by the American Elected Royalty, their mouthpieces (the media), and their thralls (you and your ilk). All in the furtherance of your goal to utterly disarm the citizenry.

We don't trust you.

[winders]

I'm still waiting for any intelligence response to this from those thinking the marketing is an issue:

"Toys kill significantly more children than rifles do. Based on your logic, we should not market toys to children because children are not able to make informed rational decisions regarding toys."

The bottom line is that the guns, guns laws, and the gun marketing are not the problem here. Children killing children with guns in play time accidents is purely a problem with the adults that should be locking up these guns or supervising their appropriate use.

Scott