Gun Nuts - Advice Needed

[id10t]

Originally Posted by red-beard

I haven't been in the market for a "cheap" 1911 for a while, but there should be some sub $500 ones out there.

Rock Island makes a great 1911 for $400ish

[tabs]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Anything Sig is generally a safe bet. If you can find a used p225 that is great for smaller hands as it is single stack.

SAY WHAT...the fk....Nostatus contributing to a Spoon Thread...???? This is totally not PC Nostaus.

[matt711]

You are going to have a difficult time finding a good 1911 for under $650. And a 1911 probably isn't the best 1st pistol to own. I have several and love them but I shoot a lot, do 3-4 training classes a year and compete (at a low level).

I recently purchased an LC9 for my dad and it's a nice little pistol. You really can't beat a Sig for quality and trigger pull. Of every double action pistol I have owned my P229 Equanox has the best trigger hands down. Im not a Glock fan so I won't offer any advice on them. The M&P line is nice if you want polymer. I have a walther P99 that is a nice choice as well.

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Your post seems to say you are a novice to firearms. You are looking for something dependable and useable. It seems you and your wife have little experience with actually using firearms. If I am incorrect in these assumptions then please disregard my post below.

I am not sure why you do not like revolvers (you do not state) but I do encourage you to review your criteria.

From your description you are buying a tool. You are not experienced with these tools but have well thought out, specific requirements for the tool to meet and exceed.

A revolver will be simpler, easier to use, more reliable.

A revolver will not have the added recoil of a slide movement, larger frames mean less recoil.

Several revolver options have smaller grips and are easier for people with smaller hands to manage.

A .38 will be as effective, maybe moreso, than a 9mm. A .357 can shoot both magnum rounds and .38 special rounds. A .45Colt will stop almost anything (but does have strong recoil).

You can find high quality revolvers well within your price range. Look into Ruger and S&W for some excellent examples.

If you are worried about round count there are some things you should know. The smaller semi-autos have five, six, or seven round magazines. A revolver has five or six rounds depending upon model (up to 9 for a .22LR). A speed loader with a side drop cylinder (S&W) is as quick to load as a magazine. If you are in a situation requiring more than three shots you are already in deep, deep trouble.

If you are worried about range keep in mind the effective range of a revolver and a semi-auto are rather similar: Short range only.

Do not worry about style. This is a tool not a fashion accessory. If you are looking for a tool get the one you find easiest to use.

At the range we generally run into women looking at first guns. After shooting our revolvers and our semis they almost always choose the revolver. They are simply that much easier to use and understand. For a beginner they are a very good option, I feel the best option. First time women shooters have NEVER liked my 1911. NEVER! My wife HATES mine and she has been shooting longer than me.


General words of advice: Do not be scared of buying a used gun, even an older one. My main tools are older than I am. I hardly have anything newer than about 1976. All but one work and that one is kept because it is a piece of family history.


If you simply must have a semi I strongly urge you to learn how to properly clean and care for it. Improperly cared for it is nothing more than a rock. Revolvers are much more forgiving and easier to care for but can suffer same if allowed to rust.


Bersa is a good quality gun. Ruger makes some nice pieces. Walther will be higher cost but I like Sig better. I have not enjoyed the Springfields I shot. Colt is out of your price range. Glock is a major safety concern for the novice shooter. I do not like S&W semis, others love them. People hate Taurus but they are consistent.

In the end it should come down to the tool your wife and you find easiest to use and can both agree on. Are you really sure your wife will use what you choose if she does not get to have input?

[Groesbeck Hurricane]

Originally Posted by on2wheels52

Double your budget, you each need one.
The one your wife likes won't be the one you like.
Jim

Jim is very spot on!

However, Wife keeps stealing all my .38s!!!! I used to have several different little Colts now all the ponies have new homes in HER safe

[matt711]

Another thing to consider is that you can get a .45acp in a revolver, they require half moon clips which can actually be an advantage when reloading. you load 3 rounds at a time. While this type of revolver is certainly harder to find they are out there. I have a 4 inch S&W model 22 in .45acp and it's a nice wheel gun.

[Jeff Higgins]

I'll chime in with another endorsement to reconsider your stance on revolvers. I know that is not what you want to hear, but there really is no better choice for a guy in your situation. Yes, autos are "cooler" or "sexier", much more trendy, modern, and up to date, but they should never be a first gun. They should never be an only gun. They are not guns for novices.

Most are significantly more difficult to operate, much less to master, than a revolver. There are safety concerns common to all of them, and some that are unique to specific designs that are simply not present in revolvers. And, probably most importantly, they are significantly more difficult to bring into action and operate when under extreme duress. Even professionals, who train with them frequently, have difficulties with them that they simply would never suffer with a revolver. And God forbid one malfunction when you need it most; you just wouldn't have time to correct the problem before things really went south.

Think long and hard about why you want an auto over a revolver. If it's just the "cool factor" or something, think even longer and harder. There is not a more servicable, reliable, easy to shoot sidearm than the revolver. Not very glamorous, not very chic, but eminently trustworthy and usable.

[masraum]

I think some revolvers are pretty darn sexy. I'm actually looking for one myself, but I'm looking for something very specific so it's going to take a while.

[Head416]

Is this for entertainment or security? Even with a revolver it will take a lot of time and training to be effective for security, and not flinch all the rounds off target in a stress situation. It's hard to miss a large target from 20' with a shotgun, due to the longer sight radius. Just something to think about.

[matt711]

20' is a very long distance to engage from with a pistol. Most pistol engagementes occur at around 7 feet. If a bad guy is 20' away you are probably not in a legal use of deadly force situation. Unless the bad guy is armed with a long gun and aiming it at you and in that case your probably toast anyway.

You could always look at at Taurus Judge 410/45LC revolver. They are making some very interesting 410 self defense loads now due to the introduction of this pistol.

[Taz's Master]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

I'll chime in with another endorsement to reconsider your stance on revolvers. I know that is not what you want to hear, but there really is no better choice for a guy in your situation. Yes, autos are "cooler" or "sexier", much more trendy, modern, and up to date, but they should never be a first gun. They should never be an only gun. They are not guns for novices.

Most are significantly more difficult to operate, much less to master, than a revolver. There are safety concerns common to all of them, and some that are unique to specific designs that are simply not present in revolvers. And, probably most importantly, they are significantly more difficult to bring into action and operate when under extreme duress. Even professionals, who train with them frequently, have difficulties with them that they simply would never suffer with a revolver. And God forbid one malfunction when you need it most; you just wouldn't have time to correct the problem before things really went south.

Think long and hard about why you want an auto over a revolver. If it's just the "cool factor" or something, think even longer and harder. There is not a more servicable, reliable, easy to shoot sidearm than the revolver. Not very glamorous, not very chic, but eminently trustworthy and usable.

I generally respond in disagreement to a post, but this one bears repeating.

Another thing to consider: Get a .22 for practice. I don't consider myself a masterful shot, but I'm improving. Unsupported at 25 yds I had trouble keeping all 6 shots on the target. 2,000 rounds later I was generally under 4" for six shots and on a good day had groups under 2", unsupported at 25 yards with a Ruger Single Six. Now a bulk pack (550 rounds) of Federal .22 long rifle was $18, so that was about $75 for 2200 rounds of practice ammo. CCI Blazer is about $15 for 50 in 9mm, which works out to about $600 for 2,000 rounds. So, if you can get a .22 for less than $525 (see Ruger mk II or Single Six), it will pay for itself in practice.

[Jeff Higgins]

Originally Posted by matt711

20' is a very long distance to engage from with a pistol. Most pistol engagementes occur at around 7 feet. If a bad guy is 20' away you are probably not in a legal use of deadly force situation. Unless the bad guy is armed with a long gun and aiming it at you and in that case your probably toast anyway.

20 feet is indeed well outside of the typical "self defense" range. Many, many defensive situations call for holding the bad guy back with your weak hand while deploying the defensive arm with your strong hand. Especially in one's home, where the assailant is likely to surprise the homeowner.

As such, the shotgun is really a pretty poor home defense weapon. That close in, the assailant is likey to grab it and take it away at worst, or redirect its muzzle away from himself at best. It is very difficult to negotiate narrow confines, such as doorways and hallways with a shotgun while being able to defend your possession of it. With a handgun, one can lead with their weak hand, and even if it gets grabbed, maintain control of, and fire, the handgun with the strong hand. Many home defense situations begin with the homeowner in a bedroom and the bad guy down the hall in the living room, or somewhere else.

Originally Posted by matt711

You could always look at at Taurus Judge 410/45LC revolver. They are making some very interesting 410 self defense loads now due to the introduction of this pistol.

I cannot think of a worse self defense round than the .410 shotshell. Yeah, it sure looks and sounds all bad ass on the surface, but anyone who has tried to kill anything with one will tell you it is all show and no go. Failures to penetrate with .410 buckshot or other loads, even when fired from full length shotgun barrels, are too well documented to ignore. Even these new whiz-bang "self defense" loads launch too few projectiles that are too light to adequately penetrate. Oh, the ballistic gellatin tests look impressive, but hang a heavy winter coat in front of that block and the darn things usually stop on the coat. We've covered it here, and the firearms press has covered it as well, with the honest scribes admitting that the current crop of .410 revolvers are a very bad idea. Pure marketing hype, aimed at those whose only exposure to shooting is the movies and the only things they have ever killed live in Grand Theft Auto.

[matt711]

The main issue I have heard about with the judge is that it comes out of timing. I saw a pretty compelling test on Guns and Ammo TV. The Hornady 410 load which was a combo of buckshot and copper disks looked pretty impressive.

For home defense I will stick with with any of my full size 1911s and 8 Winchester Silver tips.

[Jeff Higgins]

It is, after all, a Taurus. They all go out of timing, among other things. Cheap S&W knock-offs, where the only reason S&W keeps up in today's revolver market is because they continue to execute their now century old designs quite well, building them from quality materials to very close tolerances. Take a company like Taurus, who use cheaper materials and far less skilled workers assembling their guns, and the results are predictable. Those old designs really start to show their age.

Full size 1911's are great, for those of us who practice with them. I have several very good ones that I love dearly, and carry regularly. My wife, however, is confounded by them. She finds it difficult to even rack the slide, much less clear a jam. So our nightstand gun remains a Single Action in .45 Colt, either a Ruger or a Colt. Simple, rugged, foolproof, and safe.

[Bill Douglas]

A genuine self defense, not playing at the range or plinking, I'd choose this gun. As for it's rating on the sexy scale - gorgeous.

[Hugh R]

No expert at all, but the top armorer in Hollywood told me if you want a handgun that is going to sit and is for emergencies, get a 38 revolver. His rationale is that a revolver doesn't jam and has no springs under tension when sitting for months or years. Semis that are loaded have at least two springs under compression the one for the slide, and the one in the magazine feeding the bullets. You want something that will always work if its sitting around for home defense.

OTOH, a friend who is a San Joaquin County Deputy Sheriff says that's nonsense and old school thinking and that new name brand semi's don't have spring failures even sitting for years, and that you want the biggest knockdown capability you can get. He says he's seen too many bad guys who weren't stopped by 38's and 9's. I think he carries a Glock or Sig 40, not sure.

[MMiller]

I know it's a revolver....but I think would be a great choice.

SP101,

[Head416]

My instructions to my wife for home defense:

Kneel behind the bed with your shotgun and point it at the bedroom door (about 20' diagonal across our bedroom) and call the police. If somebody breaks through that door, pull the trigger. I don't want her trying to clear the house with her handgun.

[Bill Douglas]

Originally Posted by Head416

My instructions to my wife for home defense:

Kneel behind the bed with your shotgun and point it at the bedroom door (about 20' diagonal across our bedroom) and call the police. If somebody breaks through that door, pull the trigger. I don't want her trying to clear the house with her handgun.

Perfect.





.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Hugh R

No expert at all, but the top armorer in Hollywood told me if you want a handgun that is going to sit and is for emergencies, get a 38 revolver. His rationale is that a revolver doesn't jam and has no springs under tension when sitting for months or years. Semis that are loaded have at least two springs under compression the one for the slide, and the one in the magazine feeding the bullets. You want something that will always work if its sitting around for home defense.

OTOH, a friend who is a San Joaquin County Deputy Sheriff says that's nonsense and old school thinking and that new name brand semi's don't have spring failures even sitting for years, and that you want the biggest knockdown capability you can get. He says he's seen too many bad guys who weren't stopped by 38's and 9's. I think he carries a Glock or Sig 40, not sure.

I think your friend has it right. Springs don't loose their "springiness" just by sitting compressed for extended periods. AFAIK, it's more a factor of compression/decompression cycles that wears them out.