Everyone is different, but I think that if you're willing to explore the possibility that your current preferences are not destined to become permanent, and that you could indeed become used to the idea of having a life partner (not a ball and chain, not She Who Must Be Obeyed, but a partner and a friend), and that you two could at some point decide together that there is enough love and resources to bring another child into this world, then you can move forward. If, in your mind, there is an absolute "NO!" to either one of those possibilities, you *must* be fair and kind to her, and tell her that it's a deal-breaker, and let her get on with the life *she* wants to lead, so that you can pursue the life *you* want to lead.

I love my wife. I love my kids. My 20-something self was a stupid doofus. :)

this is why i find out even before dating them, there stance on children. thats a bull **** choice, between letting a girl go, and having a family with her. just don't put yourself in that situation if you can at all avoid it. yes, it substantially narrows my dating pool looking for only women who don't want children, but the alternative is just ridiculous.

Here's my story and you might as well get a cup of coffee.........

I've been married more than once and always for love.... 1st should of never married her and of course it failed but I got daughter Rachel out of it and she's wonderful. Her mom took off to TX to chase her dreams when she was 4 and I got custody and kept her in PA.
Swung the bat a second time a few years later , wife 2, and was with her for another 9yrs and along came Hannah and same as before we split when Hannah was 4 and I pulled custody again with her mother moving to SC. (no idea of the patterns here, just fate)
Anyway, if you would of told me that I would be in my 40's at that point with 2 daughters from 2 marriages raising them on my own I would of pzzzzed myself laughing. It's been honestly what I have found to be what I'm actually here for. Being a parent is what gave me focus in one direction. When I was in my 20's I was skiing,sailing in the Atlantic,mountain climbing and doing nonsensical selfish things at all times.
You think you know what love is? You've got no idea until you raise a couple kiddo's especially on your own.
Dating? I wouldn't touch a woman no matter how hot she might be or otherwise on the crazy scale without a little understanding of her own parenting skills.... best judge of character I know of... messed up kids, messed up parent

A whole ton of wisdom here! ;)
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"I thought I had awareness, until I got more." ~ me

Sorry this has been bugging me.

WRONG! Dogs are billions of levels easier to raise than kids. Not a good expectation to start with. Despite being raised in the same house, same parents, same rules and expectations, same love, same etc... my two kids are completely different.

Obeys the rules - Kid 1 always, Kid 2 only when not caught.
Respect - Kid 1 95% yes, Kid 2 100% yes
Love - a well scored draw
Loyal - Kid 1 ~ 50%, Kid 2 solid 100%

On and on. There are no instructions or guarantees. Difficult for sure.

I never thought Id be a spokes person for haveing kids. My son came along by suprise when I was about 35 and before my wife and I married. It was super scary even though I wasnt that young. I had lived a bachelor lifestyle for so long. Hell my elise was a daily driver at the time.

At the risk of being sentimental and cliched, He was definately the best thing that ever happened to me. By a long shot and I was already pretty content with life. I had an epiheny last year. It was super nice out, I was at a track day, driving an exige......and I decided to leave a bit early because I was excited to go home and play with my son. Two years earlier the only way I would have left early is if dragged off kicking and screaming or at the request of a victoria's secret model.

I am not judgemental of people who dont want kids. It is alot of work and they are pretty selfish sometimes. However, I do think there is no way that somebody who has never had kids can understand the upside.

lol that was my first thought when baby came along. It will be just like a high maintenance puppy.

WRONG. If you measure intelligence by ability to learn, even young children are way smarter than any adult. It doesnt take long before they start to train you. Its a fun journy watching thier discoveries though.

To all you gents out there who have children...(never had one, myself).
'Must be amazing to see your own expressions on the face of another Human Being.

[QUOTE=JavaBrewer;8278379]Sorry this has been bugging me.

WRONG! Dogs are billions of levels easier to raise than kids. Not a good expectation to start with. Despite being raised in the same house, same parents, same rules and expectations, same love, same etc... my two kids are completely different.

+10000000000 on this.

My 2 kids are totally different.

My daughter thinks I created the moon.

My son....he could care less what I did.

As to Don's comment on seeing your own face in a little person's. It's even stranger when your "little angel" shows you YOUR mean face back at you.

My little brother is 43 and never had kids and he is fine with that. He is a good uncle to his nieces and nephews. My kids know him as "Crazy" Uncle Jimmy. That's probably my fault as I told them about some his shenanigans when we were growing up. SmileWavy

Really getting tired of this mess above, and twice in a row...

Carter

The dog comment was in jest.

Thanks to everyone for contributing. I took the weekend and my classwork to the VA/obx this weekend to get some perspective. Should be good to clear my head and be around my family/friends.

First, I have to say I'm utterly amazed that no one, in nine pages, managed to request a pic of said GF. It's really the deciding factor.;)

Outside of that, I'll share my experience. My wife and I were HS sweethearts. We had some time away from each other in the college years, and I thank my lucky stars that we managed to get back together.
We agreed early on that neither of us wanted kids, ever. She is still insistent upon it now (she is now 26, I am now 29), but I could see it in a few years, after some financial changes. That said, if she never changes her mind, I would be incredibly happy just being the awesome uncle I am today (we're fortunate her brother has two little ones and lives nearby).
I don't like most kids - they're ill-behaved, disrespectful, and frankly just dumb. But I love hanging with my niece and nephew for limited periods of time. Four years ago, before them, I would not have been as open to having kids myself (and even after them, it's only a consideration). You're (I'm) at an age where wants/needs change rapidly. But a good woman doesn't come around every day.
If the large concern remaining is the financial aspect, be honest with her about it. If it's a cop-out, she'll know. But, if you think she is the one and you're just not sure about kids, I wouldn't $%&@ it up. The real risk is finding out ten years from now that you want to be a father and can't find a woman worth having kids with.

I wanted to update this thread.

On Thursday morning I left on a 'sabbatical' trip back home and to visit my best friend who owns a restaurant and lives in the OBX, NC.

I was able to put together the following thoughts:

-After reading the excerpt that Don posted, I really have to take a step back and look at myself from an outside view (if that makes sense)
- After several years of envying my buddy with the restaurant and his carefree single guy lifestyle, I was relieved to spend the time there. I grew to appreciate what I have to come home to each night. (Nice home, clean surfaces, warm bed with my partner in it). The grass isn't always greener. I'd taken my situation for granted.
- I discussed at length the nature of my parents' relationship, which has never been good. I've only grown up around bad marriages (my parents, family, friends) and it tainted my view of the institution. After discussion, I came to a feeling that Kacie and I are already on a much better path than my parents were. Despite my father and I having many similar personality traits, Kacie and I are already ahead of where my parents were at the same point in their lives. Our interaction and relationship is much, much better.

I had other thoughts and feelings. The plan I had for when I got home was this:
-Explain to her that there's nobody else I rather be with
-Explain how my perspective about my buddy's lifestyle ( which I think had been a hang up of mine from moving forward) no longer appealed to me, and how that signaled to me that I've already matured to some degree.
-Explain that if I were able to have certain concerns addressed, I'd be much more open to the thought of children. These concerns were things like not losing the quality of our relationship, not being forced out of my own hobbies (especially things I could do with a child)
-Explain that I will have a better, clearer picture of where I want to go in the future after allowing myself some time to evaluate my personality flaws and try to gain perspective on life with a more open mind (read: instead of automatically answering a question "I never want kids", to instead be more considerate and thoughtful)


We talked again tonight, and I think she's all but made up her mind; this isn't going much further. Nothing I could say would take away things I've said for years- she's convinced that if we got married and had kids, I'd resent her and the children for it. There is no way I can honestly set her mind at ease about this, because I'm still undecided.

Another curve ball she threw tonight is that the religious topic is something bigger than she had originally let on or I had thought. We'd always been extremely respectful of each other's views, but were obviously aware of the disparity. It wasn't until recently that she realized she's missing something in the relationship that I can't give- a combined relationship with God.

I'm all for progressing for a more open-minded point of view on life, and have been trying to think more positively about marriage and children. I cannot, however, be persuaded into religious beliefs that I have such strong opinions about.

We both feel pretty numb. I'm not sure if we've mutually decided to split now or not- it's not clear and neither of us want to address the subject bluntly. Who would? We've each built our entire adult lives around each other and our relationship. To be single now after this time puts us back into new, scary, lonely territory. It's terrifying to me, especially as someone who heavily relies on either my significant other or close friends for most things that I struggle with.

I'd like to give a heartfelt 'thank you' to everyone who's contributed to the thread. There was a high level of respect and maturity displayed, as well as compassion and helpfulness.

This is likely the start to a whole new chapter of my life.

GA,
My first thought: Thank you for acknowledging the PPOT members who participated in this thread with you.
Second thought: I'll think about my second thought with more consciousness than right now.
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I respect your courage, young man!
Welcome to adulthood!

Don,

I'm not sure if I should be mad at you, or buying you a beer! Your subtle 'nudging' me in a certain direction was a little cryptic until you posted the excerpt from your book. After reading it, I feel like I have WAY more work ahead of me than just deciding if I want kids. Extremely helpful, even if it did enlighten me to a not-so-great reality.

I discussed it quite a bit with my parents over the weekend, actually.

When in a relationship with another person you should be aware that the situation can always be changed on you.

Their feelings can change on something you thought was decided long ago.

Yours can as well.

Sometimes it isn't fair, well, most times unless it is something that changes in your favor.

Much like you changing the situation on her through self examination now - she's wary of it. Later on, she could change her mind on something you regarded settled.

It's happened in my marriage. Good communication, understanding and empathy are the only things that will get you through things like that. I know because I am constantly lacking in enough of those things.

Compromise in a marriage is a terrible thing in my opinion. Still - it has to be. Rarely do two people agree on everything 100% and sometimes you're just not right in your opinion and sometimes they aren't. Sometimes you simply can't do anything about that but agree to disagree. If it comes to that and it is a big enough thing then it could mean the end of the relationship but if it isn't a big enough thing to kill it - it can make it stronger. The one who compromised for the other should be recognized for doing so; understood but the compromise shouldn't be held over anyone's head. Maturity is needed there...(I lack enough of that too).

Children

Finances

Religion

Homestead

These are the big ones man, the ones that can be deal breakers.

your last post took an unexpected plot twist for me right at the mid-way mark.

All I can say is even when you have 100% certainty going in, you still only have a 50% chance of making it.

DUN DUN DUNNNNN!

Yeah, me too. I prepared myself for the 'moving toward kids and marriage' talk. Not the 'time to find God' talk.

Let me repeat:

I wasn't kidding. These four are the issues that require like-mindedness. Otherwise, odds of success go way down.

You were correct. Up to this point, it hadn't been an issue for us. I even said that in this thread. I politely humored the family by attending the big services (Chistmas, Easter, special events) and bowed my head at prayers. I've never disparaged the beliefs of anyone, and haven't ever discussed my own.

I was under the impression (and led to believe, I think) that it was a neutral issue. A moot point.

Mongoose,
This path, life...it has many turns, valleys, mountains and deep dark forests and there are times your map is sure and then the map makes no sense.

Those who have a plan find themselves changing it according to the scape. Tjose with no plan find them selves in places of wonder and horror.
Children, God, career, stuff and finally a partner are all the things we aspire to understand but rarely do. We fool ourselves more then we don't.

Sometimes we think too much and sometimes not enough. Only years tempers us and maybe it's because we lose our energy and acquiesce?
If your lucky you will stumble into a life worth living ... And I think the key is to have an open mind about all things but hold on to a few key values - just have to figure out what you stand for.

Good luck. Few actually try but those that do succeed.

Don't give up. You still have friends.

Be VERY happy you vetted this out now and not later. You'll walk away with bruised emotions and suffer from a broken heart for a while but you'll eventually get back on your feet and find yourself with someone better for you. If this had happened a few months or years down the road you'd be miserable, pretending to be someone you're not just to keep someone else happy AT BEST. More likely you'd be out all your money, your home, your possessions, your income (present and future), your kids and your plans for the future. Men ALWAYS lose. Watch your ass and best of luck going forward.

You did the right thing. Be honest and let the chips fall where they may. Religion, like kids, is one of those bedrock things in a marriage. You have to build your marriage on those shared values. If you don't have that basic stability, your house is destined to eventually crumble.

i'm as impressed with your seeming sensibility as I am with the wise Pelican comments in this thread. my best to you, goose.

That's not my book, partner...it's Dr. Sam Vaknin's book.
Nonetheless, I'm pleased that the information has prompted considerable self-reflection for you.
It appears that what you're now doing is referred to as "conscious suffering."
Self-forgiveness is a good thing! ;)
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~~~~~
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Narcissists, Narcissistic Supply and Sources of Supply
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Narcissists, Narcissistic Supply and Sources of Supply
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This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited" ~ Dr. Sam Vaknin

Don,

Maybe I misunderstood what was bolded in the quote above. I figured it may have been a pen name.

I spent a little time searching for and pricing out apartments or houses to rent in the area. Every one I looked at, I did it with the automatic assumption that she'd be there with me. I had a very hard time disconnecting my thinking from that.

Then it really struck me- I'd be completely alone. I moved to this city with her to be nearer to her family. I have 1 cousin my dad's age, and his son. About an hour away. We met for the first time when we got here. I have no real family here besides hers, and I have a few friends but no 'shoulders to cry on'. I have 2 vehicles that require garage space, and one big dog. None of my own furniture besides a bed and dresser. No job while I complete my licensing classes.

It's going to be very tough.

I, 50 y.o never married no kids. Was engaged twice in my life, had/have healthy relationships with women.
My best friends, some who go back to grade school have told me, Alex ALEX, do not get fuc*^#g married. They all say they love their kids then stare off into space when I ask if he is happy.

That's all I needed to hear. I love being single. I love bringing a girl home enjoying each others co. then watching them leave in the morning is priceless.

My 2 cents.

It doesn't have to be. You are mobile. You could move back to your home town so you have family support. Or, treat this as an adventure. Find something completely new and different to do. Something that you've been interested in, but haven't done because you were with her, doing stuff she wanted to do. A lot of people have done just what you are contemplating. It's called "going to college".

My experience: my family was far away. My friends all went separate directions. My girlfriend as far away as you can be and still be in the same country. :) No friends, no relatives, no job, no car, just a couple of boxes of stuff and the prospect of a lot of hard work and sacrifice. It turned out pretty well, LOL. But let me tell you something: it wasn't easy to begin with. In fact, it was hard as hell adjusting to the *new* of everything. Add on top of that a H.S. girlfriend breakup a month in, and it was pretty damned challenging. Get out there and do stuff. You'll meet people and make friends and maybe even meet a girl who is more of a match. Hell, the first place I'd start is dog obedience class. I met some very nice dog people in class. And I still hang out with one of the guys, who also happened to be in the old-man soccer league, and he got me to playing, where I met other old guys who liked to play soccer....

You get the picture.

I did the college thing. Partied my ass off, took advantage of the 2:1 girl/guy ratio.

From my perspective today, it will not be fun in the beginning. However, I think it will be an interesting new chapter.

Here's to hoping I don't get some chick knocked up now. What a bad case of irony.

Wrap it before you tap it. 100%. Or just fap it. :)

Have you ever gone back to condoms after years of not having to use them? It's terrible.


I will likely stay in the ATL area. I love the city and there's a ton of stuff to do here. Plus, once I finish my licensing requirements, I have an awesome job lined up in a field that I've been trying to get into for a while.

Then again, I could just move to Brazil.

No doubt it is going to be tough.

But there is also no doubt you'll get through it. We all have at various times in our lives.

It'll just take some time. "Time heals all wounds" and "This too will pass" are cliches, but they are also very true.

You want to know what's terrible? 18+ years of child support payments.

Condoms help prevent two decades of wallet drain. Oh, and getting disease. But wallet drain? Goodbye Porsche, and good lifestyle. Jimmy hat, or GTFO. :)

This is absolutely true. My grandfather always gave me the same advice when I was in some sort of predicament, "This too shall pass". Most notably when I broke it off with my long term high school girl friend. He was right, I was just fine after. That was a little easier though, as I hadn't built a life around the girl. Still lived with mom and dad, was in HS, etc.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I agree. It is one detriment to strange, though.

Good luck to you, Goose.

After my divorce, I moved 70 miles away from everyone and everything I knew. It was the best thing I did. Sure, it sucked coming home to my empty tiny apartment but I lived through it.

Then I met my wife. I knew from our first date that we would be married. We celebrated 13 years of marriage last Monday. We have had our good times and bad times. (We aren't sure what time we are in right now but that's another thread.)


Live life to the fullest, be good to people and yourself! I hope that your girlfriend finds happiness as well.

How are you planning on doing this?

"Clean break," cold turkey style?

Or drag it out style?

Probably drag it out style. I'm pretty well stuck in where I'm living until I can put together some money. We'll probably continue to sleep together and go out together, but once we can each get on our own feet, I imagine it will be 'clean' from there.

Not ideal, I know. This would have been much easier if we weren't living together and each had sufficient resources.

Want another curve ball? I hadn't mentioned: we live on our own floor in her parents' house. The plan was for us to stay here and not rent, so we could buy a home together.

Whoa.

From Barbara De Angellis, PhD
"Are You The One For Me -?
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Are You the One for Me?: Knowing Who's Right and Avoiding Who's Wrong: Barbara De Angelis: 9780440215752: Amazon.com: Books
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A page from her book - I tried to photo it...but rather small.

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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1412184235.jpg