"...but didn't need to go see. I knew this, so non-issue."
~~~~~~~~
So you weren't really giving to her.

Within the BPD complex is a strong component of narcissism.

I'll hum a few bars on my take on Narcissism.
In our early years, when our young psyche witnesses that we are not genuinely loved (the holding environment), ("This is probably a huge point, but my dad was a dick most of my life.."), it (the psyche) decides to give to itself what it construes to be "love". But it is immature and doesn't have a clue what love is. It becomes extraordinarily self-centered.
In short, that psyche enters into adulthood with a profound arrested emotional development.
The rest is what you have witnessed in you own life...as has your lady and your associates.

The fact that you're thinking so seriously (with consideration for others) means you're really growing up now, and are thinking more about finances and life - no longer simply wanting for the years to keep slipping away. Congrats! You're now entering adulthood!

Rule #1 - Be in charge of your life and live the life you've always wanted. Who cares about what role models you had or didn't have growing up. Let those things go and you'll really start living. Be the man, husband, father that you've always wanted to be. Figure out what needs to change to make those things happen for yourself.

Rule #2 - Find what truly makes you happy.
What you're going to figure out in life (as you get older and wiser) is that happiness that you get by getting or doing the things that YOU want won't ever be as rewarding or as satisfying as giving things and your time to your family and friends, and especially your wife (and kids).

Rule 3 - You'll know you're with the right girl when you can't ever picture her not being in your life. When you're with the right one, you'll gladly move to any part of Earth, just to be with her - and she'll do the same for you. That means also being open to what's going to make her happy and you also wanting to do the things that you know will bring joy to her life (like committing to marriage AND kids). Listen, life's not perfect - EVER!. While you're making your awesome plans, life is going to take over. It might look scary but you'll figure it out.


Here's a perfect example. Answer me this. What would happen if she told you she was pregnant?

I'm not sure what you mean here.

I bought two tickets to the concert. The original assumption was that we would go together, but I told her she was welcome to take a friend who would be more interested in seeing the show than I was.

I'd be a father. Simple as that.

goose,
.
You're PM'ing me information that you clearly are not willing to share with the forum members. The very forum members who are willing to take the time to respond to you.
You're playing a game (withholding is the most pernicious form of lying) with us as you are with your lady...and perhaps all others in your life.
My offer to talk with you via PM and emails is over and out.

Sorry, not unwilling. It was straying from the topic. I have nothing to hide. You have my permission to discuss it here if you'd like.

Then share away...about what your lady has noticed in you.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. The only mention I made about what she's commented on was the following quote from the previous page:

For others to consider, here's what I PM'd to Don:

I looked up a few articles on BPD. I show some of the traits. I have never tried to harm myself or others. Things like changing plans during the day (say, running errands) will make me cranky if the day isn't previously set up to be a loose schedule. If someone tells me something like, "I'll be there at 10:00" but doesn't show until 10:30, I get irritated if there isn't a valid reason.

I took a BPD test and scored a 15: 0-14 being unlikely to have, 15-19 being possible, through the highest score of 34 being extreme BPD.

"I looked up a few articles on BPD. I show some of the traits."
.
Harming one's self and suicidal inclination is on the extreme end.

Don,

What are your thoughts?

My thought...
.
Narcissists, Narcissistic Supply and Sources of Supply
.
This article appears in my book, "Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited" ~ Dr. Sam Vaknin

Fascinating. Enlightening. Terrifying.

I guess that also answers my earlier question.

"...earlier question..."
.
About what?

Whether or not you were educated in or practicing in the field of psychology.

Decades ago I saw how undeveloped I was and sought out information that would give me some hope.
A fiance had an affair, I fell off the floor. I didn't even have myself to fall back on...terrifyingly alone, I was.
I spent ~ 16 years searching...and found my Self.
.
I did nothing that anyone else wouldn't/couldn't do with any level of salvific desire.
Lots of miracles out there.
Good luck, Mr. goose.

Hi Mongoose,

A few things I have experienced. If a relationship does not feel right then I would run like Forest Gump. Not always but you can judge a woman by her mother's personality.
Conversely I have met single guys and girls that will remain single because they could not adapt their lifestyle to that of another or vica versa. Some folks are just not meant to be married.

If you have any doubts about your compatibility with a woman and then you marry her then it will likely get worse. You can feel lonely on your own but if you have a long term relationship with a woman you are not happy with you can feel more lonely!

It is great if you can get it right with the first marriage but in my case it took twice and I have no regrets.

Cheers, Guy

Either you can or you can't......No, you can't. The "not always" qualifier negates the rest of the sentence so why bother even typing it in?

You are at an impasse on the topics of kids and religion, two huge issues for a marriage. Is she comfortable with you remaining an agnostic for your entire life, or is she expecting/hoping that you'll sometime change? Does she still expect you to go to church with her, or does she go alone? How would her family feel about her marrying an agnostic? What is the church situation when you go visit her family for a weekend? If you did have kids, how would they be raised?

When my wife and I met, she was a devout Catholic and I was a casual Methodist that hadn't been to church in years. I went to church with her because at the time it was more important to her than I, and we had a lot of conversations on the topic. Our agreement was that she had to accept the fact that I might never become a Catholic, as I refused to convert based on family pressure. This was a big deal in her family, as her grandmother in particular was not happy to see her marrying someone of a different religion. I agreed that our kids would be raised Catholic, and that I would attend church with her regardless of my affiliation. We operated like this for several years of marriage until I decided on my own terms to convert. Most importantly, it wasn't an issue because we had discussed it and were on the same page.

Very good questions.

She is comfortable with my religious standing. Does not pressure me into anything, and doesn't expect anything out of me as far as going to church, praying, etc. Out of respect for her and her family, I do go to church with them on Easter and Christmas (have been for 6 years now), bow my head if they pray before a family meal, and will listen to their thoughts about God and Jesus. I have never presented my side to her family, but they do know that I am not religious. It's probably made its way through the grape vine or they can just tell.

I believe her family would probably prefer, in a perfect world, that she marry someone that shares her convictions. Having said that, I am very close with most of her family. I've spent good amounts of time with her parents, grandparents, sister, cousins without Kacie being around. They are a wonderful family that have accepted me as their own. I would be HIGHLY surprised to find out that they wouldn't be excited for us to get married. Her sister does get frustrated about me sometimes- though it's only because her ex-fiancee and current fiancee would have more problems in a month than Kacie and I ever had in the relationship.

Funny story- around Christmas last year, one of her grandmothers told me that I was her favorite grandchild!

To give another's perspective: My mother flew down to visit us for her (mom's) birthday in March. She had been worried about me not having a support structure and family here. We all went out to dinner together (grandparents, parents, cousins, aunts/uncles, Kacie's best friends). Later that night, my mother and I were chatting and she started crying because she was so happy to see how they interacted with me and truly acted as family. She was thrilled that I wasn't just 'alone' in the area.

So, you say you can't see yourself without her.

In which case, can you see yourself:

Married to her at some point?
With kids?
Willing to give up your toys to see her happy? (yes, including your first car)

"Run, Forest, RUN!"

Lighten up. This kind of comment can escalate to a thread getting shut down.
If you cannot address the OP's question why bother to respond?
Guy

I'll reference a question that was asked last night, and elaborate on my answer.

It was asked "what would happen if she was pregnant right now?" Assuming this would be an 'oops'.

I answered that I would be a father.

To elaborate- I do not have any problem accepting responsibility that is mine, whether planned or otherwise. Honestly, I probably would sell my 911. Not my other (first) car, because that's a daily driver and not worth much. It's also reliable, comfortable, and very inexpensive to maintain (SC400, btw).

Having said that, I wonder if one of the main reasons I'm reluctant to commit to children is simply the financial aspect. Obviously it's a concern, but it may be the 'root'.

Yes, I can see myself "married" to her- albeit maybe not in the traditional way. My perspective on marriage is tainted. Maybe my reluctance or difficulty to change that perspective means I'm somehow tainted as well (Paging Don) However, I do see my long term future with her. We've planned homes together, planned business together, travel, etc.

I also think there's something to be said about the phrase "necessity is the mother of invention" and how it may apply to this scenario. It's one thing to work enough to support myself and my hobbies. If I have no pressing reason to greatly improve my income, I don't have to. But, with a pressing priority, I guess I can't see why that wouldn't be met with applying more of myself to facilitate everything.

So, you're saying you're ok with having kids, but have concerns regarding its financial impact on the both of you.

Why don't you say that to her, then? That seems perfectly reasonable, in my opinion.

money...
dude your reaching / looking for an exit..
many here loved her when 'broke.' or things were tight..
babies got feed first and dad wore the same pants a bit longer..
sure $ is needed and good to have..
but the hard times made us what we now..

Rika

I have a follow up question.

If money wasn't an issue, would you be willing to have kids with her?

Yes, but not exactly.

At this point in my life, I have not warmed up to the idea of having kids in the future. She knows this, and I have been very consistent and clear in our conversations together that my mind may change in the future, but I do not know.

However, if a child were dropped in my lap tomorrow, I would be a father, without question.

I disagree. We've been broke together. Loved her then. We've spent money together, loved her then, too. We've always kept the mantra "you and me against the world".

It's not a matter of her and our relationship dynamics together up to this point. If that were the case, this would be an easy plan.

I would probably be more open to the idea. I hold on to every dollar I have because most of the time, it's already allotted to something. That something could be bills, planned nights out, car parts, whatever.

If there was a healthy amount of excess funds, I wouldn't have to keep that mentality. (Assuming all other costs didn't rise proportionately. Something I try to keep managed)

sub'd :)

Mongoose - glad you are taking this so seriously. We have 2 kids - more money than I care to remember has been invested. It's certainly not for everyone. We have several friends that have decided to forgo children for all the same reasons you are listing. The key difference is that the women in those relationships are on the same page as the husband.

If your GF really wants kids and you have the mindset that she will somehow 'get over it' I think that is an incredibly dangerous and possibly self centered approach to marriage. I second the comment from Moses and suggest you be honest with yourself and your GF right away. There is too much potential damage over the horizon.

Now from a Dad's perspective, if you need anything else to sway you away from having children read this devastating story. It is the nightmare that all parents are susceptible to and frankly I don't know how I would ever recover emotionally.

Best,
David

David,

this is not the case. I am not expecting her to get over it. I'm at a point today of searching within myself to determine what it is that's causing my reluctance to commit to children. Maybe if I can determine and address it, I will have a better chance of knowing how to move forward.

IMHO, I don't think you are being fair to her, or yourself, by deciding "right now" that you don't want children.

But, if that's how you really feel, you should cut her loose. Would be a shame, though, to lose someone you obviously get along with really well.

Who knows, it may not even be in the cards for her to get pregnant even if you tried.

Dunno, the first time you hold your own child, nothing else seems to matter and you fall in love like you never thought possible....and what's better than having a awesome partner on top of it.

Sounds pretty ideal to me...

Good luck with your decisions!

Experience, age... way too much life ahead of you.


good luck

Is it wrong for me to say that you seem to prefer the lifestyle of not having kids in the picture?

(Plus all of the financial freedom / flexibility that entails)

I have been very fortunate in my life, so what I am about to type may not make any sense.

Growing up with an extended Spanish family on my mother's side I have witnessed every cliche concerning my Basque heritage.

My mother's father was a wise and funny man...he served in the Navy as a Warrant Officer Electrician in WWII at the age of 42, owned his own car repair business Oakland before and after the war.

On his countrymen: "If we are hungry, we think with our stomachs, if we are full we think with our dicks..."

While that certainly doesn't apply to you, some advice he gave me when he pinned my Ensign bars on me when I was commissioned might: "Don't complicate things. You are going to be faced with three easy decisions that will affect your men: schite, stand or stampede, decide which one is best."

Sounds stupid on the face of it, but I found he was pretty much right. You need to make a decision and accept the consequences concerning the woman: Schite, stand or stampede.

I read all the above, and will relate my experience.

I didn't want to get married, and I hated kids. Kids loved me, though - wherever I went, I'd always be surrounded by the damn things, and couldn't seem to figure out a way to not be a kid-magnet. My girlfriends all found it very cute and cuddly, and this unwanted kid-attention worked out very well for me. But I had no intention of settling down with one woman or having kids.

Fast-forward to today. I've known my wife for nearly thirty years, and have been married to her for over twenty. Never a day goes by when I'm not thankful to have her. We have two kids, and while I was worried about being a father, I figured out that I really do like kids, I just didn't know it. *They* knew it before I did. The plain fact of the matter is that in your early to mid-20s, you really don't know schitt about anything in life, and the stuff you think you know, you will laugh at later. I shake my head at that kid I was. Yeah, every now and then I wonder how things would have been different if I would have not got married. I come to the conclusion that my life would not have been as good.

The funny thing is that kids change your outlook on that. It might be a chicken/egg dilemma.

Eric

This is the exact sort of testimony I was looking for. Thank you for sharing.

I wanted to know if it was conceivable that a man who knew he didn't want to be married or have kids, had done that and come out ahead on the other side.