Well, I have been drinking Vodka/Tonic...;)

I've had more than enough 'experiences' to scramble my brain. If I can be considered intelligent and well spoken to a stranger on the net, I'm sure Don will be just fine :D

I hadn't said more than 3 words to her since she got home from work. I've kept myself locked up in my man cave tending to this thread and one other on a different forum, and studying for my real estate license exam.

I just walked downstairs to get some laundry sorted and spoke with her. The thought of not having her in my life kills me. Doing some dishes, I had a mild revelation (maybe just the thought?) that I may just need some time to myself to work on my maturity and selfishness issues.

I'm flying back home on Thursday morning to be around my support group. Driving to the OBX to spend the weekend at my buddy's house and bar to clear my head. Dinner with Mom over the weekend.

Hopefully to return to ATL on Sunday with a better perspective on my situation.

I am much better at communicating through writing than I am in speech. Do the bright minds of PPOT think it would be wise to show her this thread? Maybe it could clear up any mis-communication to see my responses to questions asked of me?

As I've said to you in an email...depends on the level of disclosure/sharing the two of you have.
Do you sense that she's in your camp or somewhat of a subtle adversary?

I feel that she's definitely in my camp. She's always very supportive of everything (that's productive) that I put my mind to. Communication has always been very good between us. We haven't made it 6+ years, from teenage years, long distance status, transitions from teens to young adults, career changes, etc without compromises and flexibility.

From your PMs, emails to me, and what you've stated here, sounds like she's quite accepting of you.
From what you say, anyway.
You do come across (here on the forum) as a very strong "Head Type".
Is she very expressive with her feelings?
And are you, likewise?

She is expressive. Pretty much communicates things to me as they happen.

I, am not so much. While I do make my feelings known, it is usually under the guise of a smart-assed remark. If it's something serious, I will wait until a time that I think is correct to address it. Usually, if it's something minor, I will sit on it for a while and if after a few days it's not important to me any longer, I will let it go.

I consider that to be both a good and a bad thing, depending on the circumstance. For the most part, things I deem really important will be brought up.

"While I do make my feelings known, it is usually under the guise of a smart-assed remark."
~~~~~
That's passive-aggressive and the hallmark of some unresolved anger that you're harboring.
Either due to her wanting something from you that you're unwilling to give or from early unresolved childhood dependency issues (mommy-daddy stuff).
Or both.
I don't know, partner, but this sounds like this will continue until she decides that she no longer wants to do this game.
If so, then you'll have the opportunity to enter into a new stage of development.
You'll either enter or you'll continue as you are ...who knows?
Welcome to adulthood...it'll be there when you're ready.
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"When the student is ready, the teacher appears."

I have a theory that most marriages that end in divorce start out with this sort of discontinuity, and either they don't honestly discuss their life goals or they simply hope that marriage will "fix it". When my wife and I were engaged we had to go to a weekend marriage retreat that was required by the Catholic church, part of the agonizingly long retreat was to root out these undiscussed issues. I was SHOCKED how many couples hadn't discussed kids, money management, how to deal with extended family, and other big hairy issues. So my advice is to be true to yourself and be honest with her. There's nothing wrong with saying you're not ready to get married. There's nothing wrong with saying you're not ready for kids. Society has too many people that shouldn't be married or shouldn't be parents, don't succumb to the pressure.

My story - married 12 years to my best friend, currently 34. We were married at 22, which is YOUNG by today's standards. But we were both ready. I compacted a decade of partying into my teen years, so for the sake of my liver it was time to settle down. We talked about everything before we even got engaged, and were fortunately in alignment on how we wanted to live life. There were things areas where we differed, religion for one, but we talked through how we would manage it within our marriage. There were no gaps, no questions, and no doubts. That, in my mind, is how it should be. If there's doubt, you shouldn't be getting married.

"...for the sake of my liver it was time to settle down."
~~~~~~~~~~
:D
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I'd expect the divorce rate would be much lower if all did as you and your wife did.

MongooseGA,

Don't believe it for a moment. A happy marriage is not full of compromises. Neither party gets what they want when they compromise. You shouldn't have to make significant compromises to be happy. At least not if you picked the right woman in the first place. I have been married for 30 years to a great woman and neither of us have had to make a significant compromise. A happy marriage is full of acceptance. One of the things that we have accepted is that we are not always going to get our own way. We are both happy to let the other have their way. How do we do that? We both love each other and want the other to be happy. So, when we come to an impasse, we look at the situation and try to figure out to whom it matters the most. For example, a few years ago we needed to buy a new car and we were not on the same page. Not even close. But I knew she had not had a new car in a while and I was more into my race car than the car I drove on the street. It meant more to her. So she got to choose the car she wanted AND got to drive it most of the time. I was happy because she was happy. If we had compromised on the car, we would have bought car neither of us really wanted and neither of us would have been happy.

When my wife and I were still dating, she let me know that she did not want to have kids. I was on the fence about kids and I was not going to let the best thing that ever happened to me get away over something I was not sure about. After we were married for a while and both of us had great jobs, I brought up the subject of kids again and we discussed it. She was not totally against the idea and I was not totally for the idea. We decided to get a dog to see how we handled that level of responsibility. After a while, even though she loved the dog dearly, she was quite sure that she did not want to have kids. I continued to be on the fence about it. She told me that if I really wanted to have kids, I needed to look elsewhere. Not having kids was more important to her than having kids was to me. Plus, I knew going into the marriage that she didn't want kids. Being with her was far more important to me than having kids. So, here we are in our early 50's with no kids.

Do I have regrets about not having kids? Yes, sometimes I do. But I wouldn't trade what I have with my wife for it. No way. I am very happy with my life. She has no regrets about it at all.

Don't get me wrong here, there are plenty of times when my wife has let me have my way too. And she is happy to do it because she wants me to be happy. Marriage isn't about compromise or getting your own way. It is about loving each other and doing your best to make each other happy. Acceptance is a big part of that. There are things about your spouse that you will never be able to change. You can either get frustrated trying to change your spouse or accept them the way they are.

The most important thing I can tell you is that you need to find someone that is on the same page with you on the big issues. These issues include kids, politics, morals, and religion. The big issues don't really lend themselves to letting your spouse have their way. They are usually of major importance to both people in a marriage. You need to have common ground for these. You need to find someone that is also your best friend. This is especially true if you are not going to have kids because you are going to spending a lot of time together just the two of you.

If, as of now, you are sure you don't want kids and she is sure she wants them, I don't see how you can move forward hoping one of you will change your mind. It's not fair to either one of you. If one of you gives in, it may work out just fine. Then again, the one that gives in could harbor resentment about it for the rest of their lives.

I hope I have helped on some way,

Scott

Don- Mommy/Daddy issues, maybe. Like I said, my parents have had a terrible marriage and unfortunately in this case, my mother was very open to sharing to my sister and I. I was able to avoid most of it as I was out of the house almost all the time from 16 on with work, school, or friends. My sister however, got brunt of it. Whole 'nother story.

I do not doubt one bit that my reluctance is due at least in some part to what I experienced as a kid. I was the rich kid in school, parents were very active in my extracurriculars (BSA, mostly), never wanted for anything, was never abused, none of that stuff. But, I was pretty much forced to watch a bad marriage from an early age and mature much faster than my peers. I was entirely self sufficient by 16.

I think the passive-aggressiveness comes from my difficulty in taking most things seriously. I find comic relief in whatever I can. Even if it's not at an appropriate time. I do not have much of a compassionate side either, which I believe keeps me from being able to sympathize with people and realize when their issues deserve more than just a sarcastic comment from me.

I've studied marketing in depth, as well as peeked over Kacie's (my GF) shoulder many, many times while she studied for her psychology degree. I analyze quite a bit about myself and situations. I think I need to turn that back on to myself again to figure out what's going on. Usually my friends are perfect at helping with that.

Matt- you have good points. In my relationship now, there few differences between us. Unfortunately, they're the big ones. She's a religious individual, I am agnostic. We've learned to respect each other very well on this aspect and it's never gotten us in trouble. We will have mature conversations about it every now and then, but stop when either feels the flow getting heated.

The other two are marriage and children. She's from a conservative, wholesome background. It's been embedded in her for her whole life. You've seen what my father's said to me. My parents were, by comparison, heathens. We didn't practice any religion (though my mother is 'spiritual'), I was permitted to drink at home at a young age, etc. As far as my upbringing, my parents were pretty liberal and open. Some might say I was privy to things as a child that were inappropriate for my age.

These are things I think are contributing factors to my current aversion to the quiet domestic life.

Having said that, I have become much more content with it as we've progressed in to it in the last two years. Especially as several of my best friends are doing the same.

On the basis of politics and finance, we are on the same page. She does get a little frivolous with spending sometimes, but it's very easy for me to show her how she could have gone about things a better way. I'm very good with money, but I do also have my shortcomings. Toys come to mind. I am good at prioritizing, though.

Scott,

Thank you for your thoughts. I think that what you're describing as letting one have their way at times over the other is a form of compromise. You're just going about it in a different yet very mature way. My mother would call it "choosing your battles".

I've become good at this in most aspects of our relationship. I may not want to have dinner with grandma tonight, but I know it's important to Kacie so we do. (Plus, her grandmother is a MEAN cook!) She doesn't like certain habits of mine, but she knows they're not harmful to me and don't have any detriment, so she appeases me. We may each know the other is not thrilled about something, but like you said, sometimes it's more important to let the other have their happiness when the situation at hand doesn't harm the other.

For all intents and purposes, we have a great relationship. It's known by us and everyone around us that we fit together better than any other couple we know, married, engaged, or otherwise. Hell, her best friend calls me to vent about her fiancee when he's being an ass because she sees how we handle ourselves together. The only stickers for us are her current desire for children and my uncertainty.

"She doesn't like certain habits of mine,..."
~~~~~~~~~~
Those being what?

I browse forums and research interests constantly, occasionally take some recreational 'puffs', stay up late, etc.


She doesn't know about the hookers and blow yet though, so let's keep that between us :D

Porn?

When people say "compromise", I think this:

Compromise. (n.)
- An agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.

In my mind, if you make compromises in a relationship, neither one of you is getting what you want. You both are giving up something. Letting the other person have what they want because it is more important to them is a win-win if you love them and they love you.

What am I, a weirdo?

Of course I watch porn. I'm sure she may prefer if I didn't, but it's a non-issue. We'll watch together occasionally. I'd probably prefer if she didn't walk in the house on the phone with her mother every day, but it's a non-issue. It doesn't affect me and she likes talking to mom. No big deal.

I just can't surprise her with a naked helicopter all the time when she walks in.

Yes, I agree on the true definition. But, with you taking the high road and letting her get the car she wanted vs a car you really wanted, you still made a concession. It just happens that it wasn't that important that you get what you want.

I'm absolutely not saying it's an incorrect way to go about it- quite the contrary. In fact, we just had an experience like it.

I bought her tickets to a concert for her birthday to an artist I would go see, but didn't need to go see. I expressed that to her and she chose to take her cousin with my ticket, who really wanted to see this show. I'm not bitter at all. They probably had a better time together than Kacie and I would have since they both shared a higher interest in this singer. I knew this, so non-issue.

Your picture is becoming clearer and clearer.
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"I think the passive-aggressiveness comes from my difficulty in taking most things seriously. I find comic relief in whatever I can. Even if it's not at an appropriate time. I do not have much of a compassionate side either, which I believe keeps me from being able to sympathize with people and realize when their issues deserve more than just a sarcastic comment from me"
~~~~~~~~
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Ever read much about Personality Disorders? In particular, Borderline Personality Disorder?

I think I missed that chapter in her studies, but she did let me know I shared some qualities with narcissists.

I appreciate you taking an analytical approach to this. Definitely helpful in providing perspective.