Ferguson Verdict

[speeder]

I've been saying from the start that the Mike Brown case is probably not the best one to protest bad cop shootings. He may very well have caused the whole thing, if the cop is telling the truth. my only beef is with the way it was handled, not as bad as the Zimmermen deal but still not optimal from a public standpoint.

The one that I would use for an example would be the Eric Garner case in NYC; not even a shooting but the cops choked the guy and he had a MI and died right there on the sidewalk. He wasn't threatening the cops at all and the whole thing was caught on video. He was arguing, a little upset and agitated but not threatening or assaulting them and there were maybe 4 or 5 cops and one of him. They just got super-aggressive and took him down and one officer choked him as he was gasping and repeating, "I can't breath!" It was awful. Then they stood around and eventually called for an ambulance. All on video.

[Bugsinrugs]

I've been saying from the start that the Mike Brown case is probably not the best one to protest bad cop shootings. He may very well have caused the whole thing, if the cop is telling the truth. my only beef is with the way it was handled, not as bad as the Zimmermen deal but still not optimal from a public standpoint.



The one that I would use for an example would be the Eric Garner case in NYC; not even a shooting but the cops choked the guy and he had a MI and died right there on the sidewalk. He wasn't threatening the cops at all and the whole thing was caught on video. He was arguing, a little upset and agitated but not threatening or assaulting them and there were maybe 4 or 5 cops and one of him. They just got super-aggressive and took him down and one officer choked him as he was gasping and repeating, "I can't breath!" It was awful. Then they stood around and eventually called for an ambulance. All on video.

This broke my heart... For selling cigarettes. How sad

[Tobra]

[QUOTE=speeder;8372940]What makes you think I'm angry? I pimp-slap ignorance and trample over stupidity with a smile on my face.

And "anger is a diagnosable mental disorder"? No, son, it isn't. QUOTE]
Anger? No, it is not. Schizophrenia, yeah, pretty much

Originally Posted by speeder

Does my anger scare you, little muffin?

Now when someone with a history of saying some pretty off the wall things says something like this:

Originally Posted by speeder

The growing consensus among legal experts. It's overwhelming.

It sort of gives one pause. I know that the mayor of Sacramento agrees with you, but he regularly is a bit adrift as well. Can you support this fairly extreme statement? Perhaps you would prefer to keep

Originally Posted by speeder

making things up and posting them on the Internet.

Why do you appear to be so angry about this one? What difference to you does it make if they riot now or after a very expensive and pointless trial? They do the Grand Jury to see if the case should go to trial, that is how it works.

Originally Posted by speeder

I can't promise you that I'll get the help you want but I'll apologize for the personal attacks. I was wrong, period, and I am sorry. I'll try to do better in the future.

Good on you Denis. Hope you had a good Thanksgiving

[Crowbob]

Here ya' go speeder:

In Ferguson, Witness Intimidation, Lying by 'Community of Color'

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by speeder

No, I think it might have been a good shooting. It's possible. But I'm not convinced at all based on the process so far. And BTW, the forensic evidence supports that he shot him at close range face-to-face. That's not in dispute. It's the rest of the story.

Well, actually the forensic evidence show he shot at him while both were inside the police car. The only wound with powder residue was on the hand, so that was the only one at really close range.

That is a little different that what you claim.

I haven't read every one of the statements, but some of them are clearly full of shiat.

You can read them all, plus the grand jury record here:

http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html

Originally Posted by Witness 41

...on his knees with his hands up and he was being shot up. And then he-he fell. The officer got out of his truck, SUV rather and that's when he stood over the boy and just emptied his clip.

And, I say I didn't knew officer was authorized to carry full automatics. I thought they had to carry

Same guy did state Brown was face down when the cop "just emptied his clip". If this was in any way reality, there would have been wounds in Brown's back. Or at the very least a bunch of holes in the asphalt at the scene.

Some witnesses claim Brown was running away when fired on, but did not turn around. No gunshots in the back, so they are full of crap.

Some witnesses claim Brown did not reach in to or interact with the police car. Brown's DNA was on the outside of the car, and blood and tissue from him were inside the car, along with a bullet hole in the armrest. The first shots were fired and the first hit on the hand were made when Brown was reaching into the car.

Witness 42 claims that the headshot was at "less than arms length" and that Wilson "stood over him and finished him off". Again, no wounds in the back, no holes in the street.

So going over that chart, and removing the folks whose testimony does not match or is completely contradicted by with the forensics, you get this:

[emcon5]

Another point, regarding the "racist" Ferguson cops.

People and the media have been making the argument, based on a MO DOJ Study, that white folks were stopped less, but were more likely to have contraband, yet less likely to be arrested, therefore: Racist.

I do think it is more complicated than the raw arrest numbers show, simply because most of the black people arrested had outstanding warrants, (369 of 483) where less than half of the whites arrested had outstanding warrants (14 of 36).

I have also seen the conclusion of racism stated because of the likelihood of contraband with a search, but the reasons for the search are ignored, with the implication that those arrested were because contraband was found. Looking at the cause for the search, the vast majority for Blacks (402 of 562) were "Incident to Arrest". So the contraband didn't matter, it was found after an arrest was made.

I would love to see the number run again, with arrests for outstanding warrants removed, to get a better idea of what was actually happening.

Now that is certainly a possibility that racism is behind arrests of Blacks in Ferguson, but whether that is or is not true cannot be determined by that report, simply because of the outstanding warrant numbers. Which is something that I have never seen mentioned in any article, or in any news reports.

[Rikao4]

seems some folks are perhaps more prone to ignore the law..
then get all freaky when the Law points this out..
those pesky past warrants & fines...
missed court appearances..
no respect..they will tell you..
as they enter the back of the police wagon...

Rika

.

[speeder]

The missing information in that equation is that Ferguson is extremely well known for being one of those municipalities with crazy, myriad fines and court fees for every minor offense that the poor residents can never afford to pay so consequently everyone in town has a warrant for littering that is now $840.

They use the proceeds from these confiscatory policies to pay for fancy new SUVs and military gear for the PD that makes the town look like Mosul or Khandahar when they use it.

No one here wants to look at the totality of the situation, it's like the blind person describing the elephant while caressing his balls. Do some of you think that the police were doing a good job and not beating and shooting people there, (besides robbing them with a court system that would make Mexico blush), and suddenly everyone is rioting over one shooting?

Regardless of whether the Mike Brown shooting was justified, (and that the cop's bad judgement or tactics did not cause it), the issue is much larger. If this leads to a spotlight on militarized police departments and abuse of citizens, it's a good thing.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by speeder

The missing information in that equation is that Ferguson is extremely well known for being one of those municipalities with crazy, myriad fines and court fees for every minor offense that the poor residents can never afford to pay so consequently everyone in town has a warrant for littering that is now $840.

They use the proceeds from these confiscatory policies to pay for fancy new SUVs and military gear for the PD that makes the town look like Mosul or Khandahar when they use it.

No one here wants to look at the totality of the situation, it's like the blind person describing the elephant while caressing his balls. Do some of you think that the police were doing a good job and not beating and shooting people there, (besides robbing them with a court system that would make Mexico blush), and suddenly everyone is rioting over one shooting?

Regardless of whether the Mike Brown shooting was justified, (and that the cop's bad judgement or tactics did not cause it), the issue is much larger. If this leads to a spotlight on militarized police departments and abuse of citizens, it's a good thing.

Source?

Even if your statement regarding unjust fines and court fees is true, it's funny how these issues don't matter IF YOU DON'T BREAK THE LAW.

[widebody911]

20% of Ferguson's revenue comes from court fines

Skyrocketing Court Fines Are Major Revenue Generator for Ferguson

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by Baz

The teaching moment here for the black community is for parents to teach their kids to OBEY LAW ENFORCEMENT - unless what they are asking is immoral or dangerous.

If they tell you to get on the ground face down - you get on the ground face down.

If they tell you to show your hands - you show your hands.

If they tell you to get out of the road - you get out of the road.

And if you are really smart......while doing the above - you say "Yes sir!" or "Yes maam!"

While there are plenty of instances of abuse by law enforcement every day - the way to combat it is not in the street - it is in the court.

The problem with this case is this kid chose the wrong venue.

As far as the legal aspect of the Grand Jury - I am satisfied they exhausted every effort to do this by the numbers despite what you read or hear in the media. Remember the media's job is to stir the pot. As is the politicians. They are NOT your friend. They are in it for the money. I watched the interview by GS of Officer Wilson and am very satisfied he was truthful with his answers and statements.

As always YMMV...

How old are you Baz?

I'm 57 and when we were teens if a LEO asked you for your I.D. "why" was a perfectly acceptable answer.
Today that same answer can get you handcuffed, thrown to the ground and kicked in the ribs.

[gacook]

I'm 38, and if a cop asks for my ID, I give him my ID. I've had a Top Secret clearance for many, many years, so my background has been picked through exhaustively; I know no police officer is going to find anything derogatory if they decide to run my name, so why would I worry about them doing so? Generally speaking, I believe police officers are doing a job; a job that tries to keep crime out of our cities. Why should I--a law abiding citizen--go out of my way to make their job harder? When I see a cop in the street, or pass by one in traffic, I wave. When I see one (in uniform) at a convenience store or other public place, I engage them in mild conversation. I teach my kids that cops are our friends...unless you're a criminal.

Anecdotally...last year, I picked up my kids from school, then drove home the way we almost always go. There is a point where the road drops from 45 to 35. At that point, I was engaged in conversation with my kids, and maintained my 47 miles an hour...and got pulled over (black cop, known around town for giving tickets like mad). When he asked me how fast I was going, I stated probably around 45 because I totally spaced out on having entered the zone where it drops to 35, which is when he told me I was doing 47. The entire time of the stop, I was giving him the "Yes, sir/no, sir," and being polite, in general. He was acting in the same manner. He gave me a warning. And I used that event as a teaching moment to my kids...telling them that generally, if you don't act like a complete ass, the cops won't bother you.

[scottmandue]

Oh heck yeah, give up our civil rights (that the police are supposed to protect not violate) in the name of efficiency.

FWIW I am also always polite to LEO's and treated politely in return.

It just irks me that we go parading around the world fighting for freedom... and we so easily give it up here at home.

[gacook]

I don't see showing ID as giving up freedom. You realize why we all HAVE ID, right?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Oh heck yeah, give up our civil rights (that the police are supposed to protect not violate) in the name of efficiency.



FWIW I am also always polite to LEO's and treated politely in return.



It just irks me that we go parading around the world fighting for freedom... and we so easily give it up here at home.

I've never been asked for ID by a police officer without being either in the wrong, or at least in a slightly suspect situation. So what's your big civil rights violation?

[McLovin]

On the list of issues that that black community needs to address and focus on in order to advance and succeed, blacks being killed by white cops should rank very low in priority.

[nostatic]

When I was young I was pulled over and questioned a number of times for essentially having longish hair and being young. Never arrested or even cited. Just pulled over, questioned under a weak pretense (e.g. "someone reported a car matching yours followed someone for many miles"). In that case, the cop was crestfallen when I came back with no wants or warrants. I saw his smile turn upside down.

[scottmandue]

If you guys are not aware of your constitution rights I don't have time to teach a class.

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

If you guys are not aware of your constitution rights I don't have time to teach a class.

ok, but, there always is, just because you have that right doesn't mean you always have to use it, everyone has a right to own a gun and a lot don't,, I show my ID if asked, I have nothing to hide. I have to show it to someone almost every day, so a cop wants to see it, no big deal.

[gacook]

Originally Posted by nostatic

When I was young I was pulled over and questioned a number of times for essentially having longish hair and being young. Never arrested or even cited. Just pulled over, questioned under a weak pretense (e.g. "someone reported a car matching yours followed someone for many miles"). In that case, the cop was crestfallen when I came back with no wants or warrants. I saw his smile turn upside down.

I have a long goatee, earrings, a shaved head, tattoos, and always wear sunglasses (my eyes are very light-sensitive). Not to mention, I'm big. I get profiled plenty, and the cops I have dealt with typically approach me in a very "ready" manner, and seem to be quickly diffused when I speak to them in a very polite, intelligent, non-confrontational manner.

Scottmandue, I'm very aware of my constitutional rights; however, refusing to show ID when asked is just being an ass, in my opinion. Maybe that's simply ingrained in me since I work in an atmosphere where my ID is scanned on a daily basis, just to gain access. To me, ID is not some magical thing that is MINE! and must be held tight to my chest. It's just a freaking picture with my name on it that says I'm allowed to do certain things or go certain places (depending on which ID).