Cuba and the US

[island911]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Let's keep this one out of Parf, OK Island? You already have a thread there to crap on....

Ian

crap on? Seriously?

This whole story centers around the actions of our president. It is political posturing of a failed presidency.

You don't get to claim some moral high ground by pushing others down for pointing to the politics of this story - which again is completely political.

[fintstone]

It is only "political" when you disagree with their thinly disguised political statement. Why they think the potential positives of any given political move are not political but any potential negatives are is beyond me.

The major difference between Cuba and N. Korea is location and climate. That, and the fact that when Cuba was building nuclear facilities to threaten the US, our President had the nads to stare them down.

[island911]

exactly ^ apparently we are in the wrong if we don't perpetuate the narrative that the wonderful obama has single-handedly opened up spectacular Cuban beaches for the enjoyment of fat American tourists everywhere. Somehow -that simpleton narrative implies- only the mighty fat American tourist can bring Cuba out of the time-warp of the repressive Castro regime.

Originally Posted by fintstone

Exactly! The dictatorship nationalized $1B in American assets in 1960. The same folks are still in charge. What would prevent them from doing so again?

exactly ^

[island911]

in related news... Obama Heads to Hawaii for Rest of the Year | The Weekly Standard

Sheesh. The wonderful Cuba would have been so much closer.

This thread is ALL about politics. Pretending that it's not reallyabout politics , is delusional.

[intakexhaust]

Its surely going to be interesting. They used to be a major exporter of cane sugar, so will see how this flows once again to the fat fetish American shores.

The other is in organic food production. Cuban's are experts in it, but only out of necessity. They lack modern farm equipment and instead use lots of manual labor. I'm not buying into the exploited termonolgy of organic foods, but its a hot 'buzz' word and something thats a growing trend in the US. Whole Foods marketing is all about organic.

Lastly, med's. I think there's going to be some major transformation in how many from the US will be going to Cuba for low cost medical care and med's. The way US pharmaceutical industry conducts itself is a major crime against humanity and Americans. I'm hoping this changes it and opens everyones eyes. Its time to put corporate execs in the hot seat.

A little tidbit and recalling this from the documentary Sicko-

Interviews disclose that 9/11 rescue workers who volunteered after the September 11, 2001 attacks were denied government funds to care for physical and psychological maladies they subsequently developed, including respiratory disease and PTSD-induced bruxism. Unable to receive and afford medical care in the U.S., the 9/11 rescue workers, as well as all of Moore's friends in the film needing medical attention, appear to sail from Miami to Cuba on three speedboats in order to obtain free medical care provided for the enemy combatants detained at the U.S. Guantanamo Bay detainment camp. The group arrives at the entrance channel to "Gitmo" and Moore uses a megaphone to request access, pleading for the 9/11 victims to receive treatment that is on par with the medical attention the "evildoers" are receiving. The attempt ceases when a siren is blown from the base, and the group moves on to Havana, where they purchase inexpensive medicine and receive free medical treatment at the elite Hermanos Ameijeiras Hospital. Providing only their names and birth dates, the volunteers are hospitalized and receive medical attention. Before they leave, the 9/11 rescue workers are honored by a local Havana fire station.

[fintstone]

I can't see how any of that changes. Why would it...other than if Cubans get enough money to buy food from the US and can import it, their agriculture will probably end in favor of a more profitable tourism trade? They obviously will not be able to provide free care for medical tourists and their drugs will likely be illegal for import.

[intakexhaust]

They'll ramp up for efficient food production and processing for export. US equipment makers like John Deere and CAT will gladly grab the business and relationship. Not only for agriculture but construction as well.

Don't bank on Cuba only for tourism. Curiosity and cultural perhaps, but laws may keep things toned down for party revelers plus Cuba may get greedy in short time.

Medical care and drugs. US citizens will now go there legally and even if Cuba has some change in policy for non-citizen's, they have an advantage of low cost and no red-taped FDA. They could tap into being a mecca for care and rehab.

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

When/if US investment arrives it will be preceded by a literal invasion of lawyers who will try to press the claims of the expats in Miami. But do any of us really give a crap that so & so used to own a nightclub in Havana 50 years ago & wants his money? They can go in the same bin that holds the British claims from India or the Palestinian claims from Israel etc. It's time to move on. The Bacardi family did.

Ian

I surely wouldn't invest in Cuba until ownership questions are resolved. I know a lot of Miami Cubans who left the country and (as far as 15 years ago, not sure about today) were clamoring to go back and "reclaim" their property. I am sure that will be a big sticking point in normalizing relations, what to do about old property claims.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

They'll ramp up for efficient food production and processing for export. US equipment makers like John Deere and CAT will gladly grab the business and relationship. Not only for agriculture but construction as well.

Don't bank on Cuba only for tourism. Curiosity and cultural perhaps, but laws may keep things toned down for party revelers plus Cuba may get greedy in short time.

Medical care and drugs. US citizens will now go there legally and even if Cuba has some change in policy for non-citizen's, they have an advantage of low cost and no red-taped FDA. They could tap into being a mecca for care and rehab.

With the small dollar limits on import/export and still no ability for the typical American to go there on vacation...I just don't see how any of this can happen. They will need Congress to buy into any major change. Opening diplomatic relations will not allow any of these things.

[fintstone]

Note that travel does not allow tourism (per the White House....details, details...):


Small changes to the ability to import to the US :

and limited export to Cuba:

[scottmandue]

On one hand I would love to visit Cuba, the country looks fantastic.
On the other hand I would hate to see McDonalds and Starbucks opening on every corner.

Has anyone seen Buena Vista Social club? Bunch of eighty year old musicians in Cuba kicking back smoking cigars and drinking warm rum out of dirty glasses... and talking about their girlfriend(s)!

I don't know how they do it... but they are doing something right!

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by motion

Because Americans have a unique way of screwing up nice things.

I totally agree with Rich on this. We will move in there with big typical corporate commercialism and trash the place.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by motion

Because Americans have a unique way of screwing up nice things.

Amen.

My entire trip hiking around New Zealand years ago I kept thinking, I hope this place doesn't become Americanized. That was 10 years ago, it could be today.

[fintstone]

Obviously, places that are not "Americanized" are nice to get away to....because they are different than what we see/experience every day. Apparently, since things in the US are the way they are to respond to the marketplace, apparently most would rather visit elsewhere than live there (note the lack of mass exodus/emigration).

I have always enjoyed my assignments overseas...particularly in Germany, Spain, Italy and Australia, but am always glad to come home.

[jorian]

I applaud the recent thawing. US policy hasn't worked over the past 50 years. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I was in Havana a few years back and really loved the place. I hope it doesn't become the EuroDisney of the Caribbean.

[scottmandue]

I just got back from Catalina island... growing up in San Pedro I spent a lot of time there over the years but have not visited in over a decade.
Avalon is still the laid back little town I loved back then... but it broke my heart to see a multi purpose building going up on the corner of Crescent and Catalina with ads showing a bunch of chain shops going in.

[intakexhaust]

Some of you guys are funny. All of a sudden you're concerned for Cubans, commercialism AND MAKING A LITTLE MONEY... HAHAHA.

[imcarthur]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Some of you guys are funny. All of a sudden you're concerned for Cubans, commercialism AND MAKING A LITTLE MONEY... HAHAHA.

Ah. There is the problem. No, they couldn’t care less about the Cuban people.

During the cold war era, it was good defensive policy to keep them isolated. Tiny Cuba with its tin pot Commie dictator was too close for comfort. Not to mention the severe embarrassment of the laughable invasion, reputed assassination attempts etc. When the Soviets set them adrift in the 70s due to their own money issues at home, Cuba started its major downward economic spiral. And all of this time, there was the money issue hovering in the background – estimated at 1.8 billion in 1960 dollars.

“The Cuba that Castro took over in 1959 was a nation overrun with American business. Tourists could stay in American-owned Hiltons, shop at Woolworth’s, and withdraw money at American-owned banks. American-owned petroleum refineries sat amid American cattle ranches, sugar factories, and nickel mines, and an American-owned telecommunications firm controlled the country’s phone lines. According to a 2008 report from the US Department of Agriculture, Americans controlled three-quarters of Cuba’s arable land.” Boston Globe

You have to just forget that it was dirty money earned during the Batista dictatorship – a cruel & repressive regime – as they say. Meyer Lansky even bribed the previous president to leave office so Batista could take over in 1952. So, the ‘connected’ Cubans did rather well at the time. Corruption was rampant but it was good times for the rich & for the criminals. The Cuba peasants were . . . well . . . they were disposable like all peasants right?

So that is the big sticking point in the re-opening of Cuba. Money. Repayment of the proceeds from corruption. That is why the US law still exists today. Forget the critic's vocal concern for the poor down trodden Cuban people who are prisoners in their own land. That is just a smokescreen for the money.

Ian

[URY914]

"So why are we rewarding Cuba? Has it released all of its political prisoners? No. Have the Castros announced that they will be holding open elections? No. Is religious freedom just around the corner? No. Nothing has changed in Cuba to warrant Obama’s executive actions. It doesn’t seem like the United States gains anything from capitulating to Cuba. In fact, Obama said that one of the great things about normalizing relations is that Americans will finally “be able to use American credit and debit cards on the island” and that now “we’re significantly increasing the amount of money that can be sent to Cuba.” Seriously? Is that what this is about? Taking American credit cards to Cuba? That may be one of the most unpresidential things I have ever heard a president utter. Why doesn’t Obama encourage Americans to visit the Gulf Coast beaches and boost consumer spending in the U.S. economy instead of boasting about Cuba?"

The Insiders: Obama throws in the towel on Cuba - The Washington Post

[jyl]

Because the US doesn't have normalized relations with any other country that restricts religious freedoms, doesn't hold open elections, or holds political prisoners, right???

Cuba is treated the way it is by the US because of history from 50 and 60 years ago. We made up with Germany, Japan, Vietnam, and they were actually in a war with us. Cuba merely had themselves a revolution and some American companies lost their investments (perhaps ill-gotten). And then they made friends with the Russians for a few decades, but last time I checked we have normal relations with Eastern Europe too.

Maybe that all seemed important at the time, but today it is really all a "BFD" thing. Get over it already. Most of the people actually involved back then are dead or so will be.