Cuba and the US

[island911]

You don't get it John. Paul Woodbury is spot on. Until Cuba changes this is just a bunch of show. And, the U.S. has had a relationship for a long time - gitmo.

Certainly you can argue that the U.S. has had an ineffective stance with Cuba, but clearly the Castro regime is pretty happy with the way things have been. So too are the hate America first crowd --who believe that an open Cuba would be ruined by American development and capitalism.

It's curious why these people don't just move there. Paradise and all.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by jyl

Because the US doesn't have normalized relations with any other country that restricts religious freedoms, doesn't hold open elections, or holds political prisoners, right???

Cuba is treated the way it is by the US because of history from 50 and 60 years ago. We made up with Germany, Japan, Vietnam, and they were actually in a war with us. Cuba merely had themselves a revolution and some American companies lost their investments (perhaps ill-gotten). And then they made friends with the Russians for a few decades, but last time I checked we have normal relations with Eastern Europe too.

Maybe that all seemed important at the time, but today it is really all a "BFD" thing. Get over it already. Most of the people actually involved back then are dead or so will be.

In general, we do not lift sanctions against folks without some movement in the right direction (concessions on their part). Our President apologizing to Castro was just too much.

We defeated and destroyed much of Germany and Japan, deposed their governments and installed the system of our choice. We hanged many of their previous government.

Cuba nationalized $1B in US assets and were building a base to launch nuclear missiles at the US. What about those American citizens who lost everything? They exported terror/mercenaries all over the world for years. Unlike the other nations you name, nothing has changed in Cuba for the last 50 years...other than their economy is failing and our sanctions would be more effective now (their primary sponsors are all oil rich and the world's glut is creating a collapse of their ability to buy friends).

Most people who were gassed in WW2 are dead as well. Should we not punish their murderers when they are found?

[fintstone]

Trading spies and murderers for a private US citizen held hostage really was not a good deal. Adding a huge infusion of cash to the Communist government as a sweetener was even more over the top.

Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism. They have been arming terrorists/troops throughout Latin America and Africa for decades and provide arms to North Korea despite international embargo/sanctions. It is not that long since they shot down multiple US registered aircraft over international waters, killing citizens.

Contrary to the picture painted by those who vacation in Cuba, these are really bad guys.

[scottmandue]

China

[fintstone]

Other mistakes do not justify new ones. At least China is not a state sponsor of terrorism. Generally, they only kill their own people.

[intakexhaust]

Nobody here really knows just yet or possible deals. There's a motive but we haven't learned of it. But there has to be a start and yes fint, let bygones be bygones. Many leaders and codgers of the past have died off. Good. Could say the same for many leaders of many countries. No remorse.

Old man Castro is done. There is no military might or threat to the US. Wouldn't be surprised our assets are partly instigators or affiliated with something more sinister. The rest of the worlds countries have open relations with them, but do they give a ratz ass about their poverty? Of course they don't! They let it be and mind their own. The US is the only holdout, BUT ironically has a POTUS who is reaching out to them.

Where do we want to start discussing modern China? Whether one believes it or not, the US is supporting communist CHINA.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by island911

It's curious why these people don't just move there. Paradise and all.

Hell, I wouldn't move there and the same goes for Florida.

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by yellowperil

Pals again?? Good? Bad?

The key to the success of this relationship is that the right people profit from it. Once that's assured then this will go forward.

Think of it like drug legalization. If the right people profit from it then formerly illegal drugs will become legal.

Follow the money. Always follow the money. Your answers to just about everything lie along that path.

[jyl]

Jeez. Some of you are angry old men, living in the past. Your subgroup is increasingly irrelevant. Soon you'll all be gnashing your teeth in government-subsidized retirement homes, tended by pot-smoking gay Cuban bicyclist nurses with murses.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Trading spies and murderers for a private US citizen held hostage really was not a good deal. Adding a huge infusion of cash to the Communist government as a sweetener was even more over the top.

Cuba is a state sponsor of terrorism. They have been arming terrorists/troops throughout Latin America and Africa for decades and provide arms to North Korea despite international embargo/sanctions. It is not that long since they shot down multiple US registered aircraft over international waters, killing citizens.

Contrary to the picture painted by those who vacation in Cuba, these are really bad guys.

And the US shoots down Iranian civilian flight 655 killing almost 300 innocent people. No apologies.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Nobody here really knows just yet or possible deals. There's a motive but we haven't learned of it. But there has to be a start and yes fint, let bygones be bygones. Many leaders and codgers of the past have died off. Good. Could say the same for many leaders of many countries. No remorse.

Old man Castro is done. There is no military might or threat to the US. Wouldn't be surprised our assets are partly instigators or affiliated with something more sinister. The rest of the worlds countries have open relations with them, but do they give a ratz ass about their poverty? Of course they don't! They let it be and mind their own. The US is the only holdout, BUT ironically has a POTUS who is reaching out to them.

Where do we want to start discussing modern China? Whether one believes it or not, the US is supporting communist CHINA.

I can't help it is the rest of the world is weak and indulgent of exporters of terrorism. The rest of the world having relations with them is how they have been able to keep a despot in power and their citizens from deposing them.

Cuba is a rogue nation. They are on our "state sponsor of terrorism" list and provide arms to North Korea in violation of the United Nations' weapons ban. In fact, as recently as this past summer, the single largest shipment of weapons bound for North Korea ever discovered under the embargo was intercepted en route from Cuba (anti-aircraft missile systems and Mig-21 engines). The only reason the UN Security Council did not sanction Cuba is because (as they did North Korea), is because they are a Russian client state, and Russia vetoes sanctions.

So what exactly is your point regarding "modern China"? Are you saying it is good to support communist China, so we should support communist Cuba? Or are you saying it is bad to support communist China, so we should support communist Cuba? IMHO, neither one deserves our support.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

And the US shoots down Iranian civilian flight 655 killing almost 300 innocent people. No apologies.

Not only is that not the same thing, it is inaccurate. Cuba intentionally shot down multiple known civilian aircraft in international waters as opposed to a US warship accidently shooting down an misidentified aircraft (while the US Navy strike group was under fire from Iranian vessels).

As far as apology...sure seems like one to me. From Wikipedia:
In 1996, the United States and Iran reached a settlement at the International Court of Justice which included the statement "...the United States recognized the aerial incident of 3 July 1988 as a terrible human tragedy and expressed deep regret over the loss of lives caused by the incident...".[15] As part of the settlement, the United States did not admit legal liability but agreed to pay on an ex gratia basis US$61.8 million, amounting to $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims.

[URY914]

The Associated Press
Published: December 20, 2014
HAVANA — Cuban President Raul Castro sent a blunt message to Washington Saturday as the White House works to reverse a half-century of hostility between the U.S. and Cuba: Don’t expect detente to do away with the communist system.

Castro’s speech to Cuba’s National Assembly was a sharp counterpoint to the message U.S. President Barack Obama gave in his year-end news conference the day before. Obama reiterated that by engaging directly with the Cuban people, Americans are more likely to encourage reform in Cuba’s one-party system and centrally planned economy.

“We must not expect that in order for relations with the United States to improve, Cuba will abandon the ideas that it has struggled for,” Castro said.

[intakexhaust]

fint- Sorry but I just typed a long reply but the site timed out.

In brief, China is now a hybrid communism ideology, thanks to R.M. Nixon ice-breaker. Do we agree with all they do? No, but is it really our business to dictate to them? The so called 'free-world' has major problems and issues just as well. You name it.

China is also a superpower enjoying trade with almost everyone. Are you happy with all your China made goods and feeding your face and family with all that imported China processed food? I'll bet you got a good deal for it too. And your investments for the future can be thanked by all the China made goods.... Apple'itic companies... ahmmm, etc.. Keep buying it and don't tell me you're not.

Cuba is not rogue unlike a Somalia. They have an operating government but dying regime. Country's like Canada keep relations hokey-dory with them, so are you saying Canada supports state sponsored terrorism? Of course not. Time is way overdue to give the people of Cuba a better way. We don't know just yet what trade aspect, markets will be the hot thing with them, but my guess there's a lot going on behind the scene. Money is going to flow and will be interesting to see what reflection it does for US companies.

Lastly, you want to talk about states supporting terrorism? Whats your stance on Pakistan. Trade on my man. And what exactly is terrorism in your mind? Gang bangers everyday shootings, catch and released by our strict judicial system....LOL. Or how about US gov. agencies feeding arms to drug cartels? Good stuff.

[island911]

Originally Posted by jyl

Jeez. Some of you are angry old men, living in the past. Your subgroup is increasingly irrelevant. Soon you'll all be gnashing your teeth in government-subsidized retirement homes, tended by pot-smoking gay Cuban bicyclist nurses with murses.

To the rescue ...



The relevant generation.

Riding on a rainbow of Hope, with a Cuban cigar between their legs.

I didn't inhale ...maybe a little blow when we could afford it.

[imcarthur]

Despite Raul’s assurances that Cuba will remain Communist, the reality is that he is aging & Fidel is a walking corpse. Sooner rather than later, something is going to happen. Wouldn't it behoove the US to position itself to be friendly - or at least on talking terms - with the eventual winner? The Cuban economy is loosening up very slowly. Starting just over 10 years ago, private in-home restaurants & B&Bs popped up for tourists & weren’t quashed. Raul eventually made it legit & private enterprises have sprung up accounting for some 20% of their feeble economy. Cubans can now leave – although they have to pay for the privilege. It’s not democracy but these cracks in their hardline policies are all positive developments – not unlike what China went through a surprisingly short time ago.

It's time to speak softly & lean the big stick in the corner for a while.

Ian

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

Despite Raul’s assurances that Cuba will remain Communist, the reality is that he is aging & Fidel is a walking corpse. Sooner rather than later, something is going to happen. Wouldn't it behoove the US to position itself to be friendly - or at least on talking terms - with the eventual winner? The Cuban economy is loosening up very slowly. Starting just over 10 years ago, private in-home restaurants & B&Bs popped up for tourists & weren’t quashed. Raul eventually made it legit & private enterprises have sprung up accounting for some 20% of their feeble economy. Cubans can now leave – although they have to pay for the privilege. It’s not democracy but these cracks in their hardline policies are all positive developments – not unlike what China went through a surprisingly short time ago.

It's time to speak softly & lean the big stick in the corner for a while.

Ian

Just the opposite. It does not behoove the US or the Cuban people for the "system" that keeps Castro in power to work (or for us to prop it up). It is not working...and that is the only reason the small and black market businesses are allowed. With the economies of state sponsors Venezuela and Russia failing due to the huge drop in oil prices, Cuba (and Castro) were in big trouble. Obama just bailed him out.

[L8Brakr]

Well, since the American policy towards Cuba during the last 50 years has been sooooo effective at removing the Castro regime and encouraging a more capitalistic government, I think we should keep doing more of the same.

Is there an emoticon for insanity?

[sc_rufctr]

For a country of just 11.3 million people they sure have gotten a lot of press over the years.

Are they or their economy even significant in any way to the US?

This new relationship would benefit them more than the US by a large margin.
Meanwhile I bet the Mob Money will be flowing in very shortly and new brothels will be opening up over night regardless of what the Cuban Government does.

The Cubans need democracy and a free press more than anything else. (A not so perfect system I know but it's the best we have)

Meanwhile this thread is full of the standard Cuban propaganda. Excellent free health care ect...
My ex father in law was a devout atheist communist (WW2 Vet) and often was involved with raising money is Australia to "help" the Cuban people.
Supposedly this money was to help the poorest Cubans get decent medical help. That doesn't sound like and effective free system to me.

Why do people believe the crap they've been serving us for generations?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by L8Brakr

Well, since the American policy towards Cuba during the last 50 years has been sooooo effective at removing the Castro regime and encouraging a more capitalistic government, I think we should keep doing more of the same.

Is there an emoticon for insanity?

That is because every time they are on the ropes, we elect someone who relaxes sanctions and bails out Castro...although none as much as this time. You speak as if that "policy" has not changed in the past 50 years.