Cuba and the US

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by URY914

The population will not get the money. The corrupt leaders will. A taxi driver takes home $10 a day. That won't change. It is all controlled by the govt not how many people he carries. It also won't change after the Castros are gone. The leaders will not allow a system to change that they are getting rich off. All this happy talk about change is by people that don't know about the real Cuba.

Excellent point, just look south to Mexico... a country rich in oil and other natural resources and the poor people are fleeing the country... while a few get very very rich.

[fintstone]

Yep, Carlos Slim of Mexico was the richest man in the world for years (now #3, I think). Castro is also claimed to be quite wealthy.

[GWN7]

It's not like they will have cruise ships pulling up to the docks and unloading tourists to go zip lining across the country. First off they don't have docks for that. There was but that was in the 1960's and they were never maintained and have all rotted away.

Anyone thinking of opening a business there is in for a rude awaking as Castro already has stated that the tax on foreign workers will be 92%. Get a job paying you $100,000 a year.....you get to live on $8,000 (kind of like tax rates up here).

Think that you can grease a few palms to make things go faster? Some one tried that and I've heard Cuban jails are not very nice.

There is no heavy equipment industry, no spare parts. This is what the end of the embargo is trying to help fix.

[fintstone]

Exactly. We are once again bailing communism out...and a murderous despot, while screwing our own citizens.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by GWN7

It's not like they will have cruise ships pulling up to the docks and unloading tourists to go zip lining across the country. First off they don't have docks for that. There was but that was in the 1960's and they were never maintained and have all rotted away.

Just got back from Catalina island, CA. no docks there big enough for modern cruise ships... however they can (and I saw them) hover outside the bay (not sure if the anchored or used thrusters) and have small boats ferry the tourista to shore... they do the same thing in Cabo.

Originally Posted by GWN7

There is no heavy equipment industry, no spare parts. This is what the end of the embargo is trying to help fix.

Agree with this 100%

[intakexhaust]

Deere and CAT will be welcomed by Cuba. Same as what they accomplished in China. Cuba will gladly cater to manufacturers that efficiently improve infrastructure or food production. I would guess, they will have a different classification and tariff vs. other goods.

[URY914]

The problem is no one will give the Cuban's credit. Would you if you shipped them a million dollar dozer? You think you'll be able to reprocess it from them if they miss a payment?

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by fintstone

...and every single one with a personal motive...none of which is the well being of the US.

Ian,

Stop wasting your time.

When one thinks they are the centre of the world, its useless to try to convince then otherwise.

They just don't get it (some do, but they are a minority, a few posts below).

[fintstone]

Forgive me, I thought that is what this thread was about, the U.S. diplomatically recognizing Cuba...despite their theft of over $1B in US assets and allowing a soviet missile base just off our coast. Not to mention their support of rogue regimes and terrorists for decades. Doesn't that make the U.S. the "center of the world" for the sake of this discussion? Do you even know what we are discussing?

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Excellent point, just look south to Mexico... a country rich in oil and other natural resources and the poor people are fleeing the country... while a few get very very rich.

Correct, a democracy with free to vote elected officials for multiple states and territories under their set of rules. And just like the US, full of great resources AND corruption. Mexico is just worse at managing it.

Regardless, they still rank as one of the worlds largest economies. Those who leave make cash in the US and send it back home. Often nearing retirement, will leave the US and return to their Mexico homeland and live like kings.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Correct, a democracy with free to vote elected officials for multiple states and territories under their set of rules. And just like the US, full of great resources AND corruption. Mexico is just worse at managing it.

Regardless, they still rank as one of the worlds largest economies. Those who leave make cash in the US and send it back home. Often nearing retirement, will leave the US and return to their Mexico homeland and live like kings.

You make that sound like a good thing. It certainly does not benefit the US...which is what I would hope would be the purpose of our foreign policy.

[flatbutt]

I worked with a Cuban ex-pat who bore the physical scars of the regime in power. His opinion was (and may still be but I haven't seen him in 2 years) that the entire gov't had to be torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. I doubt that he's cheering in favor of this announcement.

[intakexhaust]

Originally Posted by fintstone

You make that sound like a good thing. It certainly does not benefit the US...which is what I would hope would be the purpose of our foreign policy.

Sure does sound like it but the fact is, it isn't always. However for the illegal alien Mexican family in the US its excellent. We're soft and they know it. Its worth the risk for them. You don't see old retired 'illegal' Mexicans in the US. Every form of government has its problems in all segments. Opening relations will benefit the US, you just don't see them.

Fint, there are other choices but some may not consider better. No perfect system, yet its best to freely vote and have the chance to voice without getting killed by a dictator. And its your choice not to participate, but whether you realize or not, you support it by buying goods from a democracy running Mexico to communist China.

BTW: Our hard stance on border control is laughable. From illegal alien traffic to products and goods. Same with trade deals with the rest of he world, but start with our friendly neighbors Mexico and Canada. NAFTA is BS for many US companies but we deal with it and figure a way to keep the exchange flowing. Lets move onto goods coming in from communist China...... now make me laugh. Lets add 'illegal and often 'knock-off' brand goods.

Whats some other choices?

There's so many loopholes and loose controls in our trade and border controls that its impossible to close. But we could close them and be like a DPRK.

OR,
We do a Russia style takeover / invasion like Ukraine. The US takes over Mexico and makes them the 51st state. While at it, could takeover Cuba in a heartbeat.

Does it help if you write your congressman and tell them of dismay? Or maybe run for a high office in government.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Forgive me, I thought that is what this thread was about, the U.S. diplomatically recognizing Cuba...despite their theft of over $1B in US assets and allowing a soviet missile base just off our coast. Not to mention their support of rogue regimes and terrorists for decades. Doesn't that make the U.S. the "center of the world" for the sake of this discussion? Do you even know what we are discussing?

I have to agree with this. The entire leadership has to go IMO before anybody should take them seriously.

The sad part is the ordinary Cuban people as always will pay for their inept and corrupt leaders.

[intakexhaust]

^The old leadership is dying or will be in the near future. This is partly why the US has to break the ice.

The time is now to show the younger Cuban's a better and improved way of life. The people are friendly and open but its their leadership and brutal manners that keeps the repressed and not able to freely speak. The youth will want to rally and participate with US ideology and hopefully a democracy or form of.

And like Australia, who's had relations with them for a few decades, why wouldn't the US seek and move toward improved relations?

Fint is worried about terrorist, the support of, and their corruption, human rights..... etc. The old regime is dying. Might as well hammer on Mexico or tighten up our own issues in the US. Its not that easy but why make the humble Cuban man or woman suffer any longer?

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

Sure does sound like it but the fact is, it isn't always. However for the illegal alien Mexican family in the US its excellent. We're soft and they know it. Its worth the risk for them. You don't see old retired 'illegal' Mexicans in the US. Every form of government has its problems in all segments. Opening relations will benefit the US, you just don't see them.

Fint, there are other choices but some may not consider better. No perfect system, yet its best to freely vote and have the chance to voice without getting killed by a dictator. And its your choice not to participate, but whether you realize or not, you support it by buying goods from a democracy running Mexico to communist China.

BTW: Our hard stance on border control is laughable. From illegal alien traffic to products and goods. Same with trade deals with the rest of he world, but start with our friendly neighbors Mexico and Canada. NAFTA is BS for many US companies but we deal with it and figure a way to keep the exchange flowing. Lets move onto goods coming in from communist China...... now make me laugh. Lets add 'illegal and often 'knock-off' brand goods.

Whats some other choices?

There's so many loopholes and loose controls in our trade and border controls that its impossible to close. But we could close them and be like a DPRK.

OR,
We do a Russia style takeover / invasion like Ukraine. The US takes over Mexico and makes them the 51st state. While at it, could takeover Cuba in a heartbeat.

Does it help if you write your congressman and tell them of dismay? Or maybe run for a high office in government.

Why not start with enforcing the law...like any other nation would? Why should I appreciate the fact that illegals like take this nation's wealth back to Mexico when they retire? I want them all out now and anyone who hires them should be locked up.

What real benefits could the US possibly have for allowing illegals into the country or opening relations with a communist country and propping up their brutal dictator? You allude to "benefits"...but seem to have no real concrete ones to mention. More "hope and change"? So far, that has not been a very good plan/strategy.

Yes, we should have taken over Cuba in 1960. A weak President (although nothing compared to now) wimped out at the last minute and let our allies be slaughtered (similar to Iraq now). The wall between the US and Mexico should already be in place.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by intakexhaust

^The old leadership is dying or will be in the near future. This is partly why the US has to break the ice.

The time is now to show the younger Cuban's a better and improved way of life. The people are friendly and open but its their leadership and brutal manners that keeps the repressed and not able to freely speak. The youth will want to rally and participate with US ideology and hopefully a democracy or form of.

And like Australia, who's had relations with them for a few decades, why wouldn't the US seek and move toward improved relations?

Fint is worried about terrorist, the support of, and their corruption, human rights..... etc. The old regime is dying. Might as well hammer on Mexico or tighten up our own issues in the US. Its not that easy but why make the humble Cuban man or woman suffer any longer?

I simply believe that our long standing policy of not propping up our enemies, known terrorist states or those who don't allow their citizens basic human rights to be a good one. Unlike other countries who have made concessions to bring us to the table, Cuba has made none and our President is simply bailing out another oppressive regime that is on the ropes...much as he has Iran, Russia, Al Qaeda, Hamas, and ISIS/ISIL...and every illegal alien criminal who wants to sneak across the border.

[intakexhaust]

Fint- No argument. I was merrily pointing out how absurd and loose the US controls borders and the illegal Mexicans here or all the China made goods, knock-off stolen branded included. Fact is, thanks to so many damn freedoms, 'we don't allow' strong enforcement. The US is spineless today and I don't like many things this administration does but the POTUS is not bailing out Cuba.

But, lets examine the US. Through the years we the people vote and trust elected officials. Even with checks and balances of power, it doesn't always work. However, we accept the best of what this country can do for one, family and the future for all. If it doesn't work for one they can leave.

Sometimes you have to accept the fact of a communist like China is just what works for them. Cry about communist you may, but you don't live there and if you really cared about slave labor, or the many other issues, you shouldn't support them or buy China made goods. Sure China, like Germany is pissy with us about electronic spying, but they do the same to us. Maybe China or Japan don't like how we tell them killing certain species of the sea is illegal. But perhaps we don't understand their foods or traditions. Same for Mexico. Is your Mexican made kitchen appliance going to make you happier if it cost five times the amount if US made? I hate that fact but its foolish to think otherwise. We need them and in a bad way..... even if you avoid buying products from Mexico or China, ones investment portfolio greatly depends on them. If we didn't trade with them, we'd be toast.

Same with the former USSR. It fell apart but we eased into them before the collapse. We have a different tune with this administration but its not going back to the old days. Russia has tasted the better way of life and do get it.

Cuba will change. The regime will die and yet its anyone's guess what it will become. We can no longer carry a hard stance with them. They're not aiming warheads at us. Best to feel them out, baby steps if you will is the best option. What would be your choice right now in regards with Cuba as this regime changes or dies out? Would you allow a radical or terrorist group maneuver in, furthermore dangerously close to our shores? In this case and with the current US administration, for once it demonstrates a power move and for the better. Time will tell, but whatever it becomes, I think we'll be better off. We've done it with China and Russia.

[imcarthur]

All well & good intake (and I agree) but you have not mentioned the elephant in the room. There’s that pesky issue of the retrieval of all of that tainted money. Fint has detailed all of the usual accusations but the only one with any true resonance is the money. Of course, to accept its importance you just have to look the other way about its source: moneys earned during the brutal dictatorship of Batista. I bet you Meyer Lanksy’s family have some ‘legitimate’ claims, right alongside the Hiltons & the Vanderbilts . . .

Ian

[JJ 911SC]

But general travel still prohibited: Cuba opens up more to U.S. travellers, trade starting tomorrow - World - CBC News