The affordable 997 thread

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Halm

What do you mean by "magic bullet"? Jake has said that the larger bearing cars are fine.

Last thing I want to do is re-ignite the IMS discussion. The larger bearing is better but it's still not failure-proof. Witness quite a few 997.1 ads "with new engines". And If I personally know not one but 2 people who had it blow up (not hearsay, not my friend's friend) in my small world of acquantances, then it's not fixed. By "magic bullet" I mean "any way of replacing that bearing without splitting the case" than clever engineers can come up with. When that happens, 997.1s will gain $10K of value overnight IMO (kinda overnight)! Witness the revenge of the 996, some later 996s are worth more than early 997s now... Anyway, moving along ;-) Still looking for a cheap 997.2 stick, in white ;-)

[onewhippedpuppy]

Most of those with failures are the 2005s that still had the old 996-style bearing in an M96 block. The 987 all had the M97 block with the updated IMS design, the base 997 got the same bearing design in an M96 designated block in late 2005, and the 997S got an M97 block at the same time. I can't recall seeing an IMS failure in a later 987 or 997 with the updated bearing. Not saying that it has NEVER happened, but I think it's very rare.

Here's some light reading if you are really bored: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93289189/Porsche_Engine_Codes_1952-2012.pdf

[Halm]

What Matt said.

I have been really surprised at the little play Jake's comments on the bigger bearing have generated. Read post #33. IMS product for cars with larger bearings - Page 3 - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[onewhippedpuppy]

Jake is an alarmist of the highest degree, if there was an opportunity to be had on the M97 bearing cars he would be all over it. He is also a great technical resource but he definitely leverages his expertise for monetary gain.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Most of those with failures are the 2005s that still had the old 996-style bearing in an M96 block. The 987 all had the M97 block with the updated IMS design, the base 997 got the same bearing design in an M96 designated block in late 2005, and the 997S got an M97 block at the same time. I can't recall seeing an IMS failure in a later 987 or 997 with the updated bearing. Not saying that it has NEVER happened, but I think it's very rare.

Here's some light reading if you are really bored: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/93289189/Porsche_Engine_Codes_1952-2012.pdf

I've mentioned before that I have a friend with a 2006 997S that is on its 3rd engine, all paid by Porsche. All IMS failures. Engine #1 blew under warrantee and then the replacement engine blew and they ate it out of warrantee. So far so good on mill #3.

[onewhippedpuppy]

Originally Posted by speeder

I've mentioned before that I have a friend with a 2006 997S that is on its 3rd engine, all paid by Porsche. All IMS failures. Engine #1 blew under warrantee and then the replacement engine blew and they ate it out of warrantee. So far so good on mill #3.

I'd be interested to know if he has an M96 or M97. Being a 2006, if it was an early build that would definitely be in the transition period. Still three engines makes me really wonder if there isn't something else going on.

[Halm]

Originally Posted by speeder

I've mentioned before that I have a friend with a 2006 997S that is on its 3rd engine, all paid by Porsche. All IMS failures. Engine #1 blew under warrantee and then the replacement engine blew and they ate it out of warrantee. So far so good on mill #3.

I am not ready to lump the M97 into the same heap as the M96. I was a serious track rat for 7-8 years and I only know of 2 996's that lost their IMS. Both were off track between events. I never saw a Cayman lose the M97 IMS. And that was maybe the most popular car at the track by the time I quit.

Like Matt said, Jake is an alarmist, opportunist and great resource for these cars. If he thinks the M97 is OK, then I won't worry about my motor.

[Deschodt]

This is a bit like politics on PPOT, nobody will change their minds and each side camps on its turf ;-) If you fix'em for a living you may lean towards the alarmist side. If you sell them for a living (or own one, which might be for sale), you lean towards the "it's fine" side! It's pretty natural... And you'd both be right, statistically speaking it's low, but if it hits you it friggin' hurts ! If you are just a buyer (like me) with no skin in the game other than your savings, you go with what makes you comfortable.

You have a set # of failures, which Porsche keeps to themselves. Heck Porsche themselves doesn't even seem to know when in 05 the bearing changed (if you read the boxster lawsuit PDF, it lists a bunch of VIN series which are not sequential, it's a clusterf#ck)... Statistically you (Halm and Matt) are absolutely correct in that the M97 bearing is much better. Yet empirically, in my small circle of acquaintances (I know about 10 people with 997/987s), 2 blew the engine due to the IMS - out of warranty I might add. Both are later M97s: One paid $15K with a partial rebuild deal and some dealer goodwill, the other $30K of his own $ with a RUF 3.8 upgrade for his Cayman S. Again, direct acquaintances, one tracked alot, one not at all.

That's statistically irrelevant, I get it, but it is "proof" the M97 is not "fixed". Halm, you say "I am not ready to lump the M97 into the same heap as the M96" - the irony is that anyone would buy a M96 engine now that we can fix this problem for (relative) peanuts at the next clutch change. Yet the "superior" M97 engine is stuck in limbo since you cannot replace that bearing without splitting the case (save removing the bearing cover, if that's considered a fix). Unless you are lucky with an M96 997 (O irony!)

So it comes down to odds... I don't think I live a particularly charmed life, never won a lottery, so I will try to save the extra $ for a 997.2. Pretty sure Porsche built the 9A1 because they were also tired of dealing with this bearing $hit. (Hans, no more intermediary shaft, ergo no more $%$#% bearing, ya!!) I guess I'm not alone thinking that because the damn 09s are *substantially* more expensive than the 07-08s still... more than a changed tail-light would suggest. Anyway, we all choose what makes us comfortable ;-) nice chat !

[Halm]

Deschodt, Excellent summary. While there are a few nits I could pick, I won't. You did a nice job, no point in a lengthy "point - counter point".

[onewhippedpuppy]

Just make sure you do some reading on carbon build-up on the 9A1. That's the thing with Porsches, no matter the generation you gotta pay to play.....

Also, make sure you drive one. Each newer generation gets a little more refined and comfortable, and loses a little bit of rawness. My favorite water cooled Porsche is a 1999 996 C2 because it is the most raw sportscar of the bunch. Of the five 996s and three 997s that I've owned, I would rate it as the most fun. At some point I'm going to build one into a lightweight hotrod.

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

My favorite water cooled Porsche is a 1999 996 C2 because it is the most raw sportscar of the bunch.

No one clicked on a 997 thread to read that kind of heresy.

[speeder]

Deschodt, without even reading your entire post, I'm not "against" these cars by any stretch. I love them. I want to buy one and any reassurance is welcome but still can't ignore my small but significant data point.

As for the early/late '06 engine, I'm sure that the first replacement motor @ 60k miles was a later version because it happened in 2010 or so.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

scam?

2005 Porsche 911 Carrera, PRICE REDUCED BY $4000...6 speed, S/R, PASM, A/C, Bose

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by speeder

Deschodt, without even reading your entire post, I'm not "against" these cars by any stretch. I love them. I want to buy one and any reassurance is welcome but still can't ignore my small but significant data point.

Speeder, I think you're quoting the wrong guy... I have the same dataset you have, more or less (2 friends that went Kablamo on the newest bearing)... I don't trust the M97 engines...

Have you guys heard from from that guy who claimed he developed a technique and toolset to repair (or is it replace) the M97 IMS without splitting the case ? Toni something ? I don't understand how that's possible unless you teleport it out of the case. Not that he gave details... curious...

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Speeder, I think you're quoting the wrong guy... I have the same dataset you have, more or less (2 friends that went Kablamo on the newest bearing)... I don't trust the M97 engines...

Have you guys heard from from that guy who claimed he developed a technique and toolset to repair (or is it replace) the M97 IMS without splitting the case ? Toni something ? I don't understand how that's possible unless you teleport it out of the case. Not that he gave details... curious...

Found it:

Originally Posted by Sapientoni

RE:2006-8 IMSB replacement. There have been only a few documented failures of these model IMSB. I rebuilt one of these and because of the expense of the case splitting for a $30 part, I designed, built, and have tested special tools to precisely enable changing the bearing with the engine in the car. Support flange and sealing also came into revision. The one I changed failed in the garage, on start up, and was gingerly driven 8 miles to the home garage for analysis, teardown, and service. Search under Sapientoni and I have posted several notes and pics to show what is found, and what you can expect under the same circumstances. I bought a wrecked 28,000 mile vehicle to prove the viability of my service.

[stealthn]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

scam?

2005 Porsche 911 Carrera, PRICE REDUCED BY $4000...6 speed, S/R, PASM, A/C, Bose

Why? It's got 100k miles....

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by stealthn

Why? It's got 100k miles....

$27K is by far the lowest I've ever seen on these cars.

[Jeff Alton]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

Speeder, I think you're quoting the wrong guy... I have the same dataset you have, more or less (2 friends that went Kablamo on the newest bearing)... I don't trust the M97 engines...
.

Was it actually properly diagnosed as a IMSB failure, or just a failure attributed to a bad IMSB (which is very common)....

Cheers

[LeeH]

Originally Posted by Shaun @ Tru6

scam?

2005 Porsche 911 Carrera, PRICE REDUCED BY $4000...6 speed, S/R, PASM, A/C, Bose

Maybe not. Typically, Craigslist scams get posted in multiple cities. I search Ad Hunt'r and only found this ad in Boston.

Here's one with 67K miles for $27,900 obo:
Porsche 911 Carrera | eBay

[stealthn]

There's a lower mileage 05 in Pelican for sale forum for $31K....