What Kind of Dog is This?

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

O.k., tell you what - let's just put an end to this nonsense. We are both better than to be going after each other like this. You have my apologies, and my promise to lay off of the pit bull posts. I know you love your dogs. I love mine as well. I have a wonderful new pup who just turned nine months, my third Golden Retriever after a string of Labs. I really enjoy their company and working in the field with them (three earned their AKC Master Hunter ratings under my training and handling). So, yes, I do understand the bond between man and animal, and I'm glad you are getting as much reward and satisfaction from your as I am from mine. I don't have to tell you it's a very special bond.

So, again, I'm sorry. I'll knock it off. You seem like a great guy, and I don't want this kind of animosity between us. Give your dog a pat on the head and a scratch behind the ear for me.

Thanks, I appreciate the gesture. I'm also sorry that we butted heads, so please accept my apology also.

Originally Posted by Baz

C'mon Jeff.....don't give up the fight!

You know, after all of these threads, there's not much more to say. People can read up on dog behavior if they want to. It may or may not change their minds. I'm firmly in the camp of accepting responsibility for caring for my dogs and I recognize that not everybody delves into the relationship between human and dog as much as some of us. I do my part, which is to give a good home to rescue dogs, and that's enough, I guess.

JR

[Baz]

My brother's 50 lb. American Staffordshire Terrier......

[Jeff Higgins]

My nine month old, 80 pound Golden Retriever. While his nickname is "The Kraken", most people call him "Ed":

[speeder]

I'm a major animal lover and dog person and I consider myself someone who understands dog psychology pretty well. Still, I stay out of these threads because they get so contentious between pit bull owners and others. I just make some popcorn and watch everyone try to rip each other's heads off.

Javadog, it's clear that you are a dog person and someone who understands dogs and training. I'm sure that your dogs are awesome. What I'm a little surprised by is that you don't put much stock in genetics. I'm a firm believer that in dogs, (and people for that matter), personality and temperament are installed at birth and of course can be altered by environmental factors and experiences.

I think that it's about 50/50, slightly more or less. The problem w pit bulls, besides terrible owners sometimes, is that many are extremely poorly bred. Unfortunately, most dog breeding decisions are made by dogs. We all know how that goes in the alleys and parks of America. In a perfect world, dogs with personality or temperament issues would be prevented from breeding and in a perfect world, dogs would not be abused and would be trained by humans such as yourself who know dogs.

In the real world, none of that happens too often. The reason pit bulls are so dangerous is because so many are poorly bred, really defective dogs and so many owners are either ignorant or malicious in handling them. They wind up in households w children or other vulnerable people and maul them, way too often. The reason you don't read about a lot of toy poodle attacks is because, A), they rarely attack humans and B), if they did it would not cause injuries that make for an evening news story.

So even though there are plenty of nice pits that would never bite anyone, (I've known many), the reality in the real world is that some are unpredictable and attack humans or other pets without much warning and the results can be tragic. I remember years ago when a guy I know was dating one of the most beautiful actresses in Hollywood until his pit killed her small dog when they left them alone together one too many times. There had never been a hint of a problem before.

I've had dogs since I was 8, (that would be 50 years ago), all of our dogs as kids were from the shelter and were cute mutts. When I was in HS, we had a pure Old English Sheepdog who was awesome but we wound up giving her to some friends w a farm because my mom thought she needed more space, (as I remember it).

As an adult, I have had two German Shepard dogs that I each got from private breeders who had both parents. I wanted to see the parents and how they reacted to a stranger, (me), coming into their home as a friendly to see their puppies. The personality, temperament and intelligence of the dogs was very important to me. I wanted a dog that I could trust with a newborn baby or raucous 4 year old child poking them and antagonizing them without biting.

I got my wish in both cases and they were absolute Hall of Fame dogs, in a friend's words. Neither of my dogs would bite an innocent person under any circumstances, I was 100% sure of it. One of them was ferocious w other aggressive male dogs and got in some gnarly dog fights but the other was a big baby who couldn't whip a Chihuahua.

I didn't need a tough dog to protect me, (I'm sure you don't either), I just wanted a smart, beautiful animal. I love all dogs, including pits but I have a thing for GSDs.

I may have strayed from the topic but my point is that in the real world where dogs are not always well bred and owners aren't the best, pits as well as Rottweilers and other fighting type dogs are often very dangerous and the results are gruesome.

[speeder]

[KFC911]

Denis, that was an awesome post....

True dawg lovers on this thread...every one of us, and I think we all have a pretty decent dog IQ, and knowledge of pack behavior....just different experiences....and we've all chased the sun for 6 decades...give or take. I'll not post on another one of these threads either...we just are all passionate about this topic...so I might be lyin' too...

Next dawg fight....tomorrow night!

Who ya pickin' Baz? Have ya got it in ya to actually pull for 'em....or is that the only dawg you've ever disliked ?

[Baz]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

My nine month old, 80 pound Golden Retriever. While his nickname is "The Kraken", most people call him "Ed":

Good looking Golden, Jeff!

Originally Posted by KC911

-snip-
Next dawg fight....tomorrow night!

Who ya pickin' Baz? Have ya got it in ya to actually pull for 'em....or is that the only dawg you've ever disliked ?

Not hard at all to choose against the Dawgs Keith....especially for a Gator!

RTR!

[RKDinOKC]

Pepper is 3 and a surprising 90lbs. Her mom and pop were both 60lb goldens. Vet says she is not fat, just a big dog.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by speeder

What I'm a little surprised by is that you don't put much stock in genetics. I'm a firm believer that in dogs, (and people for that matter), personality and temperament are installed at birth and of course can be altered by environmental factors and experiences.

I think that it's about 50/50, slightly more or less. The problem w pit bulls, besides terrible owners sometimes, is that many are extremely poorly bred. Unfortunately, most dog breeding decisions are made by dogs. We all know how that goes in the alleys and parks of America. In a perfect world, dogs with personality or temperament issues would be prevented from breeding and in a perfect world, dogs would not be abused and would be trained by humans such as yourself who know dogs. (

Genetics play a significant role in dog behavior. It's what makes a dog act like a dog. Their instinct to hunt, or chase, is rooted in their genetics. I do place a limit on how quickly you can alter their "instinctual" behavior through breeding. Can it be done in even one or two generations? I don't think so.

Dogs are born with certain behaviors in them but they are pack animals and learn most of their behavior from other dogs. Look up "allelomimetic behavior" for a detailed dive into this type of learning. They are not unique in this, most animals learn this way but they are different from most in that they are capable of learning from other species, namely us. They learn in the same way that they learn from dogs, by observing and mimicking our behaviors. They can be selective in what they learn (is this something useful to me to get what I want?) and they can learn both good and bad behaviors. This last point is where I think things go south for some dogs.

Dogs really begin this learning process at about 5 weeks. They are often pulled from their mothers at about 8 weeks and frequently put into households without another dog. That's not a lot of time to learn everything they need to know and we are poor teachers for dogs, as we are largely ignorant of how they think. We try to turn them into 4-legged humans. Not going to happen... We also teach with all sorts of useless methods. We want them to respond to verbal commands. They'd rather be taught with a movement, or a gesture. That's "normal" to them.

The other thing is that, if they are born into a bad household, where their mother has been trained to be antisocial, or is abused (chained up, segregated from other dogs, encouraged to be aggressive, not cared for or fed properly, etc.) they will learn these bad behaviors. It's difficult for most people to take a dog raised in such an environment and turn it around. It can be done, but it's beyond the skill set of most owners.

In the end, I think dogs need to be around other dogs, so I have always had at least two at a time, if not three. I also don't over train them; I'm happy to let them be dogs. I provide a somewhat structured environment where they can do what they were born to do, without getting themselves, or others, in trouble. I recognize that they will always be dogs, so I have to not put them into positions where they would do something bad, and I'm always aware of their energy levels and moods. I interact with them as needed, so maintain the peace. I don't simply wear them out with dogs walks, so that they are too tired to get into trouble. I do fill their need for exercise and play, but I also let them know when they need to change their behavior. It's simple and quick.

Dogs want consistency and order. They seldom get that, in the average household. It is what it is and I'm not going to be able to do much to fix that. i also can't fix the other thousand problems in the world, so I just need to do my thing and learn to live with, or ignore, the rampant stupidity of human existence.

[AFC-911]

Originally Posted by speeder

I remember years ago when a guy I know was dating one of the most beautiful actresses in Hollywood until his pit killed her small dog when they left them alone together one too many times. There had never been a hint of a problem before.

Yeah. I'd end that relationship, too...

That said, I probably wouldn't put my small dogs in such a situation. That's like bringing home an ex-con to meet your kids. No thanks!

[Por_sha911]

Pit bull kills woman at Louisiana pet 'hotel' | Fox News

[Baz]

[Buckterrier]

WOn't even watch it Baz

[Por_sha911]

Oh gee, what a surprise, another person killed by a sweet loving Pit Bull.

Maryland woman reportedly killed by newly adopted pit bull, police say | Fox News

[Baz]

My niece and her vicious bloodthirsty killer attack dog.....

[Por_sha911]

They're all (meaning ones not spefically trained to be killers) sweet and lovable until something bad happens. Grenades are totally harmless until the pin gets pulled. The question is why does it seem like "the pin" gets pulled on Pits for no apparent reason?

[RSBob]

After my constant companion, hiking, mountain biking and ride everywhere in the car buddy recently died (black lab who never snapped at anyone or any other animal in his entire 14.5 years) I think I will skip the debate and get another lab. This will be my third and none of them have had behavioral issues. I believe in genetics and genetic predisposition and I am predisposed to get another lab. Are there vicious labs? Yeah every species has a few genetic misfires, just like humans.

Besides everyone knows that Porsche owners are overcompensating for a certain “short coming” so why do I need a macho dog to make the thing even smaller?

Now back to, “I’m right. No, I’m right”.

[WPOZZZ]

My baby is a Fashionista. She has a Coach collar and leash. The gf got her that magenta Tory Burch bracelet that she wears as a necklace. I got her a silver TB "necklace" to go with the magenta one. lol

[Geoz1]

Nice dogs.

[Steve Carlton]

Originally Posted by Baz

My niece and her vicious bloodthirsty killer attack dog.....

Who's going to fear a 12" tall dog?