Bought another Subaru Outback, weird clutch prob, please help me diagnose

[DonDavis]

1999 Subaru Legacy Outback, 2.5, 5 speed. 294,000 miles. Engine sounds great, it's all there, good overall condition. Paid $600. Car has "good bones".

Here's the thing. They said the clutch is bad and it cannot be driven.
Hydraulic clutch, pedal feels so-so. Feels like it engages toward bottom half of overall pedal travel.
I can see the clutch fork moving on top of trans when pedal is pressed.
Hydraulic fluid level is proper, but dirty.
Car has spent a LOT of time in Baja California and it's very, very sandy.

The car acts like the clutch never disengages. With engine running I can row through all the gears without touching the clutch pedal. Feels like I'm engaging all gears, I can see the shift linkage moving underneath.

It seems like the clutch is stuck ENGAGED, as in pedal pressed, trans disengaged from engine.

Typically, we see clutches fail in the opposite manner. As in, cannot put into gear with engine running, else the car would begin moving.

This is the other way, seems like the clutch is pressed all the time.

Owner stated no history of transmission issues or noises. My OBW has plenty of driveline whine, she rode in it and said hers never makes anything like that sound.

Have you ever heard of a clutch being stuck ENGAGED?
With the car in gear it rolls freely. Looks like all axles are intact and rolling as well.

Did I mention it's very, very sandy? I'm wondering if sand has contaminated the clutch and it froze when depressed.

Long shot, I know.

What say yee?

[eddie914]

Clutch disc worn out ... Completely?!?!

[DonDavis]

But that would mean I couldn't ENGAGE the clutch. This acts like the opposite.
Car running, foot NOT on clutch pedal, I can shift through all gears, car never moves, no grinding, no unusual sounds at all.

[DonDavis]

Nice. Ha!

[DonDavis]

Maybe it's the canooter valve.

[JackDidley]

If the clutch is not transmitting power to the transmission the clutch is fried and/or the pressure plate is dead. Either way, it all has to come out for repair. If it was a hydraulic problem the clutch would not release and gears would grind.

[pen15]

Clutches are always Engaged with no driver input. You press the pedal to disengage it. Textbook worn out clutch.

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by pen15

Clutches are always Engaged with no driver input. You press the pedal to disengage it. Textbook worn out clutch.

Ok, I have the terms reversed.

That said, would your "worn clutch" diagnosis fit this issue?
Seems a worn clutch would prevent smooth shifting while the engine was running.

[RANDY P]

Originally Posted by DonDavis

1999 Subaru Legacy Outback, 2.5, 5 speed. 294,000 miles. Engine sounds great, it's all there, good overall condition. Paid $600. Car has "good bones".

Here's the thing. They said the clutch is bad and it cannot be driven.
Hydraulic clutch, pedal feels so-so. Feels like it engages toward bottom half of overall pedal travel.
I can see the clutch fork moving on top of trans when pedal is pressed.
Hydraulic fluid level is proper, but dirty.
Car has spent a LOT of time in Baja California and it's very, very sandy.

The car acts like the clutch never disengages. With engine running I can row through all the gears without touching the clutch pedal. Feels like I'm engaging all gears, I can see the shift linkage moving underneath.

It seems like the clutch is stuck ENGAGED, as in pedal pressed, trans disengaged from engine.

Typically, we see clutches fail in the opposite manner. As in, cannot put into gear with engine running, else the car would begin moving.

This is the other way, seems like the clutch is pressed all the time.

Owner stated no history of transmission issues or noises. My OBW has plenty of driveline whine, she rode in it and said hers never makes anything like that sound.

Have you ever heard of a clutch being stuck ENGAGED?
With the car in gear it rolls freely. Looks like all axles are intact and rolling as well.

Did I mention it's very, very sandy? I'm wondering if sand has contaminated the clutch and it froze when depressed.

Long shot, I know.

What say yee?

Pilot bearing is probably seized to the shaft or the pressure plate took a crap. time abuse and heat did it. Pull it apart. It happens.

rjp

[wdfifteen]

Not connecting the engine to the transmission is the common behavior for a bad clutch. They seldom fail in such a way as the engine cannot be disconnected from the transmission. (though I have seen clutch disc lining get shredded and jammed between the pressure plate and flywheel) A merely worn clutch usually tries to drive the car. It drags enough to cause the gears to clash if you try to shift with your foot off the pedal but can't move the car. I suspect something more catastrophic:

1. center ripped out of the clutch disc
2. splines are ripped out of the clutch disc
3. since the pedal feels "funny" it could be something in the pressure plate


You are using the terms engaged and disengaged differently that most people use them.
"Engaged" means the clutch is connecting the engine to the transmission. "Disengaged" is what happens when you press the pedal to the floor on a working clutch.

[Arizona_928]

Post pictures

[john walker's workshop]

Broken cv joint, stripped stub axle splines?

[pen15]

Have seen a few that have been driven until the disc is so worn that they will not move any more and you can shift right thru all the gears without touching the clutch pedal. Usually the smell of the burnt disc will linger for quite some time. Does it stink?

[SCadaddle]

1997 Subaru Legacy Outback wagon, 2.5 with manual 5 speed transmission, 193k miles, new clutch at 92k miles:

Sometimes if I don't drive the old car for an extended period of time, I can push the clutch in prior to starting and the pedal will act like a spring is pulling it towards the floor. FAAAWONK! is the noise it makes, and it is stuck towards the firewall. Don't freak, just reach down and pull the clutch pedal back up and she is good to go until the next time it does that.

That being said, the clutch slave cylinder on these cars is at the firewall right in the middle of the engine bay. Have someone work the clutch and see if it is pushing against the lever arm. If you are looking at the linkage moving from inside the car with the console removed, you are only seeing part of the motion. Underneath on the drivers side of the transmission is where the linkage coupler lives and it wears out quickly. IF you can move the stick shift far to one side and let go resulting in a spring snapping it back to center with much tension, then this linkage coupler is working. If not, and the shifter is really sloppy, then the coupler is toast. It's a more or less $50 part and you will need a few wrenches and a couple of punches to deal with the roll pins that connect it all up. Good Luck!

[DonDavis]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Broken cv joint, stripped stub axle splines?

All CVs are fine. Boots are perfect, they turn properly when car pushed.

Originally Posted by pen15

Have seen a few that have been driven until the disc is so worn that they will not move any more and you can shift right thru all the gears without touching the clutch pedal. Usually the smell of the burnt disc will linger for quite some time. Does it stink?

I'm thinking it's this. There's no smell, but the failure occurred a month ago. I know the smell you mention, it's probably all dissipated by now.
Car is now in my garage. With car in gear, engine off, we can push it back and forth a few feet. I can hear what I believe is the clutch disk making very slight contact while rotating against the flywheel. Apparently it's not enough to make an odor. And the noise I describe is very faint.

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

That being said, the clutch slave cylinder on these cars is at the firewall right in the middle of the engine bay. Have someone work the clutch and see if it is pushing against the lever arm.

Confirmed. The firewall reservoir is the master, the slave is mounted just forward of the clutch fork on top of trans. I can see the slave actuating the clutch fork.
There's a reservoir for brakes and separate one for clutch.

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

If you are looking at the linkage moving from inside the car with the console removed, you are only seeing part of the motion. Underneath on the drivers side of the transmission is where the linkage coupler lives and it wears out quickly. IF you can move the stick shift far to one side and let go resulting in a spring snapping it back to center with much tension, then this linkage coupler is working. If not, and the shifter is really sloppy, then the coupler is toast. It's a more or less $50 part and you will need a few wrenches and a couple of punches to deal with the roll pins that connect it all up. Good Luck!

I know the coupler you're describing. I replaced that one on my '96 OBW.
This one is intact, but probably a little worn. I doubt it's enough to contribute to this issue.

I was underneath the car and the linkage is properly moving.
Also, the shifter snaps back into the middle when in Neutral so the spring is there.

First thing we'll do is flush the brake fluid and clutch fluid. It needs it.
We're going to order a clutch kit, timing belt kit, plugs, wires, coil pack, and change engine, trans and differential oils.

Did I mention there's a LOT of sand in this car? Holy crap, it's everywhere.

I'll get before and after pics. I know we like pics.

[fastfredracing]

My last clutch job on a Subaru, was exactly like you described. It was a forester, but they drove it till it did not move . I would let out the clutch, and nothing would happen at all, the rpm's did not even move or stumble . It was really toast
I also had to replace the flywheel, they got it so hot, that there were heat cracks all over the flywheel surface.
Be prepared for a lot of friction dust in there once you open it up .

[DanielDudley]

Originally Posted by john walker's workshop

Broken cv joint, stripped stub axle splines?

Yeah. I had a Subaru with a stripped hub spline once. Had several that had clutches that were just way out of adjustment. Some have the adjustment under the dash and over the gas pedal.

[aschen]

Wrx clutch job took me forever on jackstands, inspired me to buy a maxjax. NA should be a bit easier but probably still a pain.

I used an excedy oem replacement which seems to be working well. Bit the bullet on an expensive oem flywheel however.

[john70t]

Is it possible the slave cylinder is not retracting?
(internally stuck/bent/adjusted too far out/something like that)
There should usually be a little gap between it and the clutch fork I think.

Or maybe it's zero-gap, and a fork return helper spring is broken so there's always pressure on the fork?

Or there is a hydraulic return line crimped, so line pressure remains in the slave and keeps it extended?

Either way, it sounds like the clutch needs to be replace at this point.
And while you are in there...

[pen15]

If you have to do the job on jack stands and have lots of time it is less time on the creeper to just pull the engine. All that needs done underneath is a few bell housing bolts, two nuts for motor mounts and six bolts for exhaust. Takes a few hours longer but much easier handling an engine with a cherry picker than wrestling a trans on a floor jack.