How do you shoot 65 rounds and miss?

[masraum]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Not sure I buy the 'adrenaline pump' theory that get kicked around every time something like this happens.

Why do bad guys hit there target so often (school shootings etc.)? Why do cops hit innocent mistaken identity people so often (looked like they had a gun when they didn't)?

1 the bad guys, once they get to that point, are CRAZY
2 the bad guys often find a place with a large crowd of people. If you line 100 people up in 5 rows of 20 with the rows staggered one behind the other and give me a semi-auto anything, I'm pretty sure I could take a crap load of them out with my eyes closed by just pulling the trigger and pointing the gun at the crowd.
3 The bad guys are probably not that worried about getting shot by the people that they are shooting at since they usually pick unarmed targets and have the element of surprise.
4 Going back to #1, the bad guys are crazy and probably really don't give a fuch if they get shot or killed (that may actually be their plan anyway).

1 The cops don't want to get shot or killed
2 the cops are getting shot at and are likely the target by the time they start shooting
3 The cops are highly visible and have to provide a little notice first (no element of surprise).

It really doesn't seem that weird to me.

[Danimal16]

Originally Posted by legion

Can you shoot a 1911 well? I can shoot a G17 very well, but can't hit the broadside of a barn with a 1911. I think it's a hand shape thing.

I am just the opposite.

[Bill Douglas]

We had a cop turn up at pistol club to do some practice. He was dressed all in black and thought he looked like a special commando or something.

He setup a torso sized target at 10 meters and let rip at it. Not a single hit.

Then he sets up the same target at 25 meters and lets rip at that, and gets a couple of hits - bizarre.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by Dantilla

Police officers are not usually expert marksmen. They are trained to minimum police standards, and a large percentage of officers never practice more than what's necessary to qualify.

Sadly true in many cases. Just like any other profession, there are motivated go-getters and true-believers, and then there are those just collecting a paycheck, with the "minimum pieces of flair" and no real love for the job. This is congruent with Danimal16's point about the perceivable difference in marksmanship abilities of specialty-detail officers. You have to be motivated enough to even attempt/test for those spots, let alone land one. Those motivated guys are going to "want" to be better marksmen, and thereby usually are. The guy just doing his 20 years on patrol with no ambition, not so much...

Further, under high stress, you don't "rise to the occasion", you fall to your highest level of training at best. Even if you have above-average skill/training/proficiency, you are no longer going to be in a controlled environment (at a range, with ear-pro, no stress, stationary targets, nobody shooting back, etc.), if/when the SHTF. Your fine motor skills go to crap, adrenaline spikes, and your fight/flight instincts kick in. Couple all that with a sub-optimal weapon (handgun vs. rifle), and your chances of missing go way up. You are not going to be a steely-eyed, non-flinching Harry Callahan, asking if the punks feel lucky...

[Eric Coffey]

Originally Posted by masraum

1 the bad guys, once they get to that point, are CRAZY
2 the bad guys often find a place with a large crowd of people. If you line 100 people up in 5 rows of 20 with the rows staggered one behind the other and give me a semi-auto anything, I'm pretty sure I could take a crap load of them out with my eyes closed by just pulling the trigger and pointing the gun at the crowd.
3 The bad guys are probably not that worried about getting shot by the people that they are shooting at since they usually pick unarmed targets and have the element of surprise.
4 Going back to #1, the bad guys are crazy and probably really don't give a fuch if they get shot or killed (that may actually be their plan anyway).

1 The cops don't want to get shot or killed
2 the cops are getting shot at and are likely the target by the time they start shooting
3 The cops are highly visible and have to provide a little notice first (no element of surprise).

It really doesn't seem that weird to me.

+1

Also, the near-perfect hit percentage of bad-guys is actually a common meme that circulates most LE agencies/PDs. It's amazing.
I've personally heard first-hand accounts of a bad guy getting multiple hits on 2 different officers (thankfully all non-lethal) while running away and shooting backwards, (gun upside down, firing blind).
"Bad guy magic" is definitely a recognized phenomenon.

Gun-wielding bad guys typically have nothing to lose, don't need to worry about ROE, innocent bystanders, or ramifications of a "bad shoot".
They are often under the influence of something, and/or just plain nutters with no sense of self-preservation.

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by Tobra

How do you shoot 65 rounds and miss? Same way you shoot <50% on free throws, not enough practice.

No- 50% on free throws means you hit your target half the time. 50% of 65 is 32.5. They got ZERO%.

True key stone cops. One up against the wall no cover. Four along side the SUV. The fat one half knocks himself out on the SUV and falls to the ground. The other three stooges don't know what to do. They are firing at least one of them thar A-ssault Weapons too. Oh yeah they had them one a those black A-ssault Vehickles too. I wonder how many rounds from that AR went right through the motor home and down the street? Also curious to know if all the AR rounds hit the motorhome or if they just went down street like in guided cruise missiles? The suspect could have killed all of them if he wanted to they were so exposed and disoriented.

Yep they these yahoos should be in schools protecting the kids. These guys instill lots of confidence in me regarding law enforcement.

But then again this was in San Francisco so expectations aren't all that high.

[sammyg2]

Some folks have nothing to loose, others have lots to loose.
The ones with nothing are probably better shots when people are shooting back.

[Bill Douglas]

I won't call it amusing, but we had this situation here in NZ.

A drug dealer was holed up in a house after shooting at police and helicopters. The police got their armed offenders squad. Same as you guy's SWAT team. And they were all geared up marching in in a tight line assault rifles to the shoulder, in other words going in for a kill. The young druggy guy nailed the three of them with a small caliber assault rifle as they came down the hall.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by kach22i

If I were a lawyer and my client was just shot by a cop, I'd attempt to paint the cop as gun crazy and trigger happy.

I'd use the officers frequency of range visits against him if the judge would permit it.

Just say'n, maybe it would not work out for the cop like you want it to.

What does the cop care? We the taxpayer indemnify them anyway. It's not like cops carry malpractice insurance.

Sorry, your idea sounds absolutely preposterous. I doubt any cop avoids target practice because he thinks it'll look bad in court.

[Noah930]

Originally Posted by Eric Coffey

Further, under high stress, you don't "rise to the occasion", you fall to your highest level of training at best. Even if you have above-average skill/training/proficiency, you are no longer going to be in a controlled environment (at a range, with ear-pro, no stress, stationary targets, nobody shooting back, etc.), if/when the SHTF. Your fine motor skills go to crap, adrenaline spikes, and your fight/flight instincts kick in. Couple all that with a sub-optimal weapon (handgun vs. rifle), and your chances of missing go way up. You are not going to be a steely-eyed, non-flinching Harry Callahan, asking if the punks feel lucky...

To build on your idea:

From my college sports psychology class, I remember there's something called the Yerkes-Dodson Effect. It's a correlation between arousal (non-sexual) and performance. Too little arousal (not being pumped up enough) for a task, and you don't perform at your optimum. As you get more arousal, you tend to do better. That's where your training and practice come into light. But, at the other end of the hump-shaped curve, if you become too overstimulated, performance drops off. The trick, for the athlete, is to be in the right zone of arousal/adrenaline/stimulation for the event. Enough, but not too much.

The example was pool-players. The study looked at people playing pool. People were observed playing alone, to determine if they were "good" or "bad" pool players. Then a group of people were sent over to "watch" the subjects play. Theoretically the audience would raise the pool players' level of arousal. The good pool players played better. The bad players played worse. The theory was that when stressed, people reverted to their natural state. If I were a cop, I'd certainly want my natural state to be a good marksman.

[peppy]

I think the suspect was in the RV and not visible to the police. I got the impression they were returning fire at the RV.

[flatbutt]

In hindsight from the comfort of my cozy armchair it looked like those officers broke most if not all of the guidelines for using deadly force. Did they actually have a target? Did they know what was behind their target?

Yes a short video doesn't tell the whole story but dang that sure looked like a fluster cuck.

[CalE]

Originally Posted by vash

wait..how does this work?

how are you defining "Sanctuary City"?

and the joke about it earlier was pretty damn funny.

ckelly78z Your reply was funny, I Didn't mean to PARF it, Sanctuary Cities the ILLEGALS no more about them then most of US, I was referring to the case of the 4x deported SCUM that murdered that innocent women and walked.
Vash, Sanctuary City - Taxpayer Vacuum.

[mfiazzo]

It's San Fran. Need I say more?

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by T77911S

they must have been shooting at steven segal, he never gets hit.

search out the Steven Segal bits done on Bob & Tom Show. piss your pants funny.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by berettafan

search out the Steven Segal bits done on Bob & Tom Show. piss your pants funny.

A dozen or so years back, I was at Jazz Fest in NOLA...one of my favorite events over the years....but I digress. Celebrities used to mingle the fairgrounds just like the other 100k folks every day...just a great vibe . That day...Mr. Badazz was there with his bodyguards all around....he even joined the Neville Brothers on stage and effed up their set too . What a bozo...

[tabs]

Originally Posted by speeder

I dunno, they usually hit the person they are aiming at around here.

That is the LAPD and LA Sheriff's Dept....when they train out at the gun range they use targets that look like Black men...

Don't let their PR disuade you from the notion that they are NOT keeping the animals in line in LA.

The last time the animals got a free pass in LA was in 92, and the city burned... that was because Chief Gates flipped the bird at the City Council who was trying to oust his racist azz, and told his department to STAND DOWN. That showed the lily livered CS's what the LAPD means to them.

[tabs]

The SFPD model officer is Barney Fife...with his one bullet in his shirt pocket...

That is one neutered department, where the prerequisite is to be anti-gun..Officer "Ouuu you mean I have to carry A GUN!!!!" Department answer, "Yes but it is only for show." Officer, "Well OK, I suppose."

Florida just goes to show ya that they ain't gona be protectin you..Welcome to the jungle Baby..

[legion]

Man disarms would-be church shooter, gets shot by police | Fox News

A man disarmed a would-be hostage shooter at a church in Amarillo, Texas, but when officers arrived, he was shot twice.

On Feb. 14, the same day the Florida school shooter killed 17 people, a gunman barged into the Faith City Mission during morning church service.

Police said the initial call just before 9 a.m. referenced an armed suspect holding approximately 100 people hostage in the chapel.

Just before police arrived, Tony Garces, a student at the city mission, snatched the handgun away from the would-be killer after others wrestled him to the ground.

“I took the gun away from a man who attempted to take others in the church hostage,” Garces told Fox News. “He already fired off one shot and I wasn’t going to let him fire again.”

But when Amarillo police officers arrived through two locations, Garces’ heroic move put him in unexpected danger.

“I thought it was over, but they – the cops – shot me,” Garces told the*local news. “The good guys shot me.”

When officers told Garces to throw the gun down, he hesitated for fear that the gun would discharge and harm someone. Instead, he tried to put the gun on the floor – that’s when he said he was shot twice.

Garces was rushed to the hospital and the man who was the actual gunman, Joshua Len Jones, was arrested. Jones is facing six charges of aggravated kidnapping.

Today, Garces is out and back on his feet after spending time at Northwest Texas Hospital for a blood clot in his lung and now faces steep medical bills, probably a lot of long-term physical problems, and a possible legal battle with the city of Amarillo, according to his lawyer, Jeff Blackburn.

Garces recently got out of prison and was trying to turn his life around at the Faith City Mission. He described the move as a “natural reaction,” something he credits to the help of the program, and although he was shot, he said he would do it again “in a heartbeat.”

Garces doesn’t consider himself a hero because of the actions of the men who took the gunman to the ground.

“I disagree with him,” Blackburn, told Fox News. “I think that’s pretty heroic.”
Blackburn added that Garces is “exceptionally lucky” because the bullet missed an artery by only about a quarter of an inch. Any closer and it most likely would’ve been fatal.

“He’s a deeply religious guy, and he’s just happy to be alive,” Blackburn said. “He feels that God intervened and has given him a new purpose in life, and he’s just trying to find that purpose.”
Garces hopes for more education for officers on the use of deadly force.

“The police didn't do a good job,” Garces said. “I told them I took the gun away from the man, I was putting the gun down. I was doing what they told me to do and I still got shot…they need better training.”

Amarillo police did not immediately respond to Fox News’ request for comment. In statements to local press after the incident, officials said they are investigating the incident.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by drcoastline

No- 50% on free throws means you hit your target half the time. 50% of 65 is 32.5. They got ZERO%.

True key stone cops. One up against the wall no cover. Four along side the SUV. The fat one half knocks himself out on the SUV and falls to the ground. The other three stooges don't know what to do. They are firing at least one of them thar A-ssault Weapons too. Oh yeah they had them one a those black A-ssault Vehickles too. I wonder how many rounds from that AR went right through the motor home and down the street? Also curious to know if all the AR rounds hit the motorhome or if they just went down street like in guided cruise missiles? The suspect could have killed all of them if he wanted to they were so exposed and disoriented.

Yep they these yahoos should be in schools protecting the kids. These guys instill lots of confidence in me regarding law enforcement.

But then again this was in San Francisco so expectations aren't all that high.

The guy in the RV was laughing too hard...