87 Carrera turn signal woes

[Paul Crowther]

Symptoms:
>4-way flashers work as they should
>with power on, and with both the old flasher relay or a new one, both left and right turn signals flash fast when either side is activated by column switch, as when a bulb is out, but bulbs are fine (they work when 4-way is activated)
>Here's the kicker: with power OFF, when right turn signal is activated by switch on column, it comes on steady both front and rear (not flashing). This does not happen on left side.
>Could there also be a connection between this problem and why my left fog stopped working (i tried a new bulb).

I'm inclined to think the problem may be in the column switch, but looking at wiring diagram I'm not convinced. However, a couple forum threads suggest a relation, even to the fog light problem.

[911obgyn]

Check ground connections, right side works the way it should left side doesn’t. I have been cleaning contacts in my rear lamps every year to keep them working.
40 year old fixtures. Turn signal contacts can be cleaned also.

[spoke]

To recap:

Left turnsignal on: Both front and rear turnsignals hyperflash (2x normal flash rate)
Right turnsignal on: Both front and rear turnsignals hyperflash
4-ways on: All turnsignals flash at normal rate.

That you get normal flash with all 4 corners flashing but hyperflash with only R or L turnsignals on indicates that the load of the bulbs is enough for normal flash with all 4 corners but not enough of a load with just 2 corners on.

So how do 2 normal 21W bulbs not cause normal flash? One way is if the ground is removed from the front turnsignals. This would cause current to flow from the bright filament through the dim filament to ground. When checking this out, pop off the front turnsignal lens and see if both filaments flash when on turnsignal.

[simmersonwheels]

On my 86, with ign off moving the signal left or right lights the indicated side for overnight parking. Normal for 86 year, not sure about your 87.
I had an issue with one side parking lights, there was a diode above the light switch that had failed. But I did not notice an increased flash rate.

[porschenut]

Originally Posted by Paul Crowther

>Here's the kicker: with power OFF, when right turn signal is activated by switch on column, it comes on steady both front and rear (not flashing). This does not happen on left side.

That's called parking lights. All European cars are designed with a parking light function, because European laws require that if a car is parked on a street at night, the front and rear lights on the street side must be on constantly while the car is parked.

Your left side should be working that way too, though.

Note that the hazard light circuit is a separate circuit from the turn signals. You should check all the relevant fuses at the fuse panel to make sure they're good, and then also use the fuse panel diagram to check that all the wiring is correct on both the power side (input - top of the panel) and the load side (output - bottom of the panel).

With turn signals activated and flashing too fast, and with a bulb removed, use a multimeter to measure the voltage going to the socket. If the voltage is too low, due to unwanted resistance in the circuit as a result of corrosion or loose connections, the relay may not see enough of a load (similar to having a burned out bulb) and cause the fast action.

[Paul Crowther]

Spoke, regarding your comment about the ground being removed from the front signals, the photo shows the connectors I'm working with. The circled red connectors go to the spades as indicated, but the yellow connector seems to have no place to go. I THOUGHT it went to a spade on back of socket, but since that spade is aluminum it didn't make sense. Does it get connected to anything?

[JRSIII]

I recently removed my front bumper to have it painted, so I have some photos of how all this stuff gets connected. Unfortunately this forum doesn't allow you to post photos from mobile phone. If you don't get it figured out by Wednesday I'll post them when I get to office. But yes, there are connections for all those wires.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by Paul Crowther

Spoke, regarding your comment about the ground being removed from the front signals, the photo shows the connectors I'm working with. The circled red connectors go to the spades as indicated, but the yellow connector seems to have no place to go. I THOUGHT it went to a spade on back of socket, but since that spade is aluminum it didn't make sense. Does it get connected to anything?

There are 5 spade connectors in the wiring of the front turnsignal bucket. 3 wires come from the vehicle:

Black/White: Turnsignal power
Gray/Red: Running light power
Brown: Ground

The Gray/Red and Brown wires have additional spade connectors which connect to the 2 male spades on the back of the bucket. These 2 wires go to the sidemarker.

The brown ground spade connects to the reflector body in the picture below.

On my car, the bottom spade on the back of the bucket is ground. These 2 wires to the sidemarker can be swapped if the sidemarker is an incandescent light bulb. If an LED bulb is used for the sidemarker, the polarity of these 2 wires is important. I've run into a few cars where these 2 wires were connected backwards and an LED sidemarker wouldn't light up where a bulb would.

[HaroldMHedge]

This should help with your tail lights making the proper connections.





SW - Black
WS - White
RT - Red
GN - Green
GR - Grey
BR - Brown
BL - Blue
LI - Violet

[86 911 Targa]

^^^^^
Not showed in the above CKT.

Best,

Gerry

[86 911 Targa]

^^^^^
The diode is either open, or disconnected.

Good luck,

Gerry

[spoke]

The diode is shown in the top right of the schematic. The diode is part of the Euro-park feature so the license plate lights do not come on when the car is off and the turnsignal stalk pushed to the right side. This diode was dead on my car so I just bypassed it.

[Paul Crowther]

[QUOTE=spoke;10300338]There are 5 spade connectors in the wiring of the front turnsignal bucket. 3 wires come from the vehicle:

Black/White: Turnsignal power
Gray/Red: Running light power
Brown: Ground

The Gray/Red and Brown wires have additional spade connectors which connect to the 2 male spades on the back of the bucket. These 2 wires go to the sidemarker.

The brown ground spade connects to the reflector body in the picture below.

On my car, the bottom spade on the back of the bucket is ground. These 2 wires to the sidemarker can be swapped if the sidemarker is an incandescent light bulb. If an LED bulb is used for the sidemarker, the polarity of these 2 wires is important. I've run into a few cars where these 2 wires were connected backwards and an LED sidemarker wouldn't light up where a bulb would.

Spoke that was a BIG help. Now I know the "parking light" is working as intended (even if only on one side), and after reconnecting the ground spade to the reflector body (where it had been until I ran into the parking light mystery) the driver side turn signal is back to working. The other side got half filled with water during a rainy drive a few weeks back so I guess I need to spend some more time on the connections in there.
Thanks again, all you Pelicanites!

[Paul Crowther]

Fixed. The problem was in my reconnecting the wiring to the faulty side, I matched “what went where” to the the locations on the other side, but things were reversed on that other side. The tip-off was that on the two sides, different filaments were lit in their respective bulbs when the running lights were on, with one too bright and the other too dim. I switched the leads going to the faulty side’s bulb socket as well as to the spades at rear of housing. Voila! Happy New Year! 💥
Paul

[Flieger]

So I recently replaced the hazard switch on my '71 since the plastic clips were broken and it didn't seem to work that great (inconsistent timing) but the turn signals worked ok besides both indicators in the tach turning on instead of just one. After a bit I realized the new switch has a slightly different pinout than the old one so I might have fried something there but eventually I corrected the wiring (moved the ground pin in the connector) and the hazards and turn signals both still didn't work. Then I replaced the flasher relay since the old one had clearly been tampered with and smelled like it may have been fried. The new relay got the hazards working but then when I tried the turn signals I get the 2x hyperflash in each direction.

Are the new relays different from earlier relays, maybe they are designed for higher amperage? I don't think I have that diode.

I have 911R style taillight/turn signal units, no license plate lights, and no fog lights in front, just the front turn signals up there (and the headlights). The 4 bulbs all seem to be functioning fine. I could try higher wattage bulbs though.

Anyone have suggestions for how to proceed? Seems like checking grounds again?

[spoke]

If the new flasher hyperflashes and the correct lights blink on the outside, then the flasher is sensing low current like the bulbs are flashing through the running light filaments. This could happen if the bulb sockets are not grounded. I assume you have 21W incandescent bulbs in all 4 corners.

To see if what I suggest might be a bad ground, look closely at the lights when they flash to be sure just the high power filament is lighting up. Does the hyperflash change when the headlights are turned on?

[Flieger]

Thanks, I will check the wattage and observe the filaments more this week. I haven't tried the signals with the headlights on yet. The aftermarket light housings could very well not be grounded well.

[Flieger]

So it appears I have 5W in front and 18W in back. Not sure on the front though- 5W sounds really low. It says P21/5W. Sounds like that could explain the hyperflash. I have an electronic flasher relay on the way though, hopefully that will fix it.

[spoke]

Originally Posted by Flieger

So it appears I have 5W in front and 18W in back. Not sure on the front though- 5W sounds really low. It says P21/5W. Sounds like that could explain the hyperflash. I have an electronic flasher relay on the way though, hopefully that will fix it.

The 18W vs 21W bulb difference seems too close to make the flasher hyperflash but it might be it.

One way to test this out is to put a load of two 21W bulbs on the flasher. It should then flash at normal speed. You can do this by removing both rear turnsignal bulbs leaving just the front two 21W bulbs in the circuit. Then hit the 4-way flasher and see if two 21W bulbs makes it flash normally.

OK, shameless plug here: you could install an EP26 flasher and replace the bulbs with LEDs like these ones. These are for the Hella 911R fixtures like yours. This is the 2nd set I've made. I forgot how cool these look with 48 LEDs jammed into a 2 inch diameter circle. These are very bright. One set are brakes with red LEDs and the other are turnsignals with 1/2 in amber and the other half running lights/brakes in red.

The bases are printed and replace the entire base/sockets of the OEM unit.

[Flieger]

That looks cool, do you have pictures of them lit up on the car?

I took the car in for some other servicing and with the holidays it may be a while before I can test with just the front bulbs, but thanks for the suggestion.