Dead and warm battery.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by timmy2

I’m glad the ignition test worked for you.
Crappy the new $250 starter only lasted a year.

Good news on that front - I bought just over a year ago and Pelican is going to replace under warranty...just got off the phone.

Appreciate everyone chiming in...

Car is up in the air to remove the malfunctioning starter so will be taking that out and exchanging for the new one.

Debating many things in regards to wiring, ignition replacement, etc...

Any other insight is appreciated -

Erik

[emac911]

Originally Posted by Bitte ein Bit

Not sloppy per se...but...and I know some can relate I may be telling myself it feels different now that I've researched it. Definitely not sloppy but not precise either...

Good thing is I have my old 911 that was totaled with only 60,000miles on it so I have a spare...sadly I see it's a pain in the rear to change.

Sounds like you already narrowed it down to the starter by removing the ignition input wire to the solenoid?

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by emac911

Sounds like you already narrowed it down to the starter by removing the ignition input wire to the solenoid?

I was about to do that this morning but another member chimed in (previous posts) and informed me about removing the 14 pin connector instead. Did that and still had the same results.

I am going to take some time and study all of this before installing the new. From motorcycles to old British trucks - this has been a new experience for me. The very warm battery was a bit nerve racking as I had parked the car to be put up for the next month as I am about to head out on a 3-4 week road trip across the country in my Rover...

I usually put it on a trickle charger and not sure I want to think of what the outcome could have been...

I haven't read about many others having this specific issue. Just overly concerned that I have a short somewhere or maybe someone can tell me this sort of thing "just happens"...especially with starters and old 911's...


Erik

[emac911]

If you have the trigger from the ignition switch removed (yellow wire) removed from the starter and the starter still runs then it isnt from the ignition. If there is power on the yellow wire all the time, no matter the key position, then you have a switch problem. Another option would be to remove the starter and take it to a parts place and let them test it. Try one thing at a time. Based on your info it sounds like a bad solenoid. Post up how it goes.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by emac911

If you have the trigger from the ignition switch removed (yellow wire) removed from the starter and the starter still runs then it isnt from the ignition. If there is power on the yellow wire all the time, no matter the key position, then you have a switch problem. Another option would be to remove the starter and take it to a parts place and let them test it. Try one thing at a time. Based on your info it sounds like a bad solenoid. Post up how it goes.

If I remove tonight or tomorrow will take to get tested.

I'll keep everyone posted...I mean what's another chapter to this novel I have started writing -

Erik

[dw1]

I've had similar problems on several different cars (no surprise - they were British sports cars) and it was traceable to one of 2 problems:

Bad solenoid or bad ignition switch

The only exception to that was an older American muscle car where the the insulation on the wire from the battery to the starter was worn and the wire was shorting to ground on the inner fender. That was a scary one, because after the car started, the wire insulation started to smoke and the engine kept running (but very badly) after the key was removed from the ignition. As quickly as I could, I removed the wire from the battery terminal, limiting the damage to just the wire... and the solenoid-starter motor assembly.

Luckily, I have never had any problems like this with my 911.

Fyi, I did do some work on my 911's steering column & ignition lock last year and it was not that bad. Getting the tamper-proof screws out was the most time-consuming task.

[Bitte ein Bit]

UPDATE:

Made time from a full schedule and got under the car to pull the starter. To my surprise the wire from the alternator was melted from the terminal to an inch, inch and a half up the wire. I left the starter hanging there hooked up and will wait until morning for better light and try to take a photo or two...

Did not expect that at all...

Wire from the battery was fine...yellow wire was good...wire from the alternator was melted not torched and bare wires were exposed and some threads looked broken/split. Doesn't appear the wire was fried anywhere else...

So, until tomorrow...

[ant7]

The alternator wire has suffered probably because of the high current drain caused by the starter continously running, all the time the engine is running, the alternator is expected to supply all the current needed for everything you would need ie; ignition, lights, indicators, horn etc, etc, it is not designed to supply the current of a starter motor, the current drain from the starter running would overwhelm both the battery and the alternator eventually, so I think the alternator wire being burnt is secondary to the original fault ie; the starter motor/solenoid.

Originally Posted by Bitte ein Bit

UPDATE:

Made time from a full schedule and got under the car to pull the starter. To my surprise the wire from the alternator was melted from the terminal to an inch, inch and a half up the wire. I left the starter hanging there hooked up and will wait until morning for better light and try to take a photo or two...

Did not expect that at all...

Wire from the battery was fine...yellow wire was good...wire from the alternator was melted not torched and bare wires were exposed and some threads looked broken/split. Doesn't appear the wire was fried anywhere else...

So, until tomorrow...

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by ant7

The alternator wire has suffered probably because of the high current drain caused by the starter continously running, all the time the engine is running, the alternator is expected to supply all the current needed for everything you would need ie; ignition, lights, indicators, horn etc, etc, it is not designed to supply the current of a starter motor, the current drain from the starter running would overwhelm both the battery and the alternator eventually, so I think the alternator wire being burnt is secondary to the original fault ie; the starter motor/solenoid.

Thank you for your take on the matter. I am going to test the starter today and hopefully that answers a lot of questions. I feel your take is more in line with how I feel but am also concerned there may be another issue possibly causing an/the opposite reaction to things... The "what if's" and "could it be's" only seem fair in this...I think testing the starter/solenoid is priority and will go from there.

I am wondering if there was an alternator issue/short the whole line would be fried or damaged? I know these are old and get brittle and what I can see appears to have oxidized...The whole thing looks pretty good, just not the few inches burnt/melted near the starter motor...



Thanks ant7 - much appreciated.

[wjdunham]

Can't you just stick an ohm meter on the starter from the solenoid start pin to battery pin. That's where the short would be if the solenoid is turning on by itself.

[ant7]

Your welcome I think we are all hoping its just the starter solenoid, as its the easiest repair for you,ie; new starter etc, I look forward to reading your findings once you have tested the starter etc.

Originally Posted by Bitte ein Bit

Thank you for your take on the matter. I am going to test the starter today and hopefully that answers a lot of questions. I feel your take is more in line with how I feel but am also concerned there may be another issue possibly causing an/the opposite reaction to things... The "what if's" and "could it be's" only seem fair in this...I think testing the starter/solenoid is priority and will go from there.

I am wondering if there was an alternator issue/short the whole line would be fried or damaged? I know these are old and get brittle and what I can see appears to have oxidized...The whole thing looks pretty good, just not the few inches burnt/melted near the starter motor...



Thanks ant7 - much appreciated.

[911obgyn]

I would consider replacing the alternator wire, its old and crunchy. Alternator may have suffered too so double check it.
Would not hurt to go bigger on the wire to alternator. If the battery is a lead acid battery check it too or replace.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by 911obgyn

I would consider replacing the alternator wire, its old and crunchy. Alternator may have suffered too so double check it.
Would not hurt to go bigger on the wire to alternator. If the battery is a lead acid battery check it too or replace.

I was going to replace the wiring and fuel lines this year...that said, out of curiosity is it possible to replace just the alternator cable or is it fully incorporated into the engine harness itself?

Hope that makes sense.


EDIT: I haven't done any further work on things...needed a few days off. Still 95 degrees down here in TX...garage is closer to 100F...

[timmy2]

Fully incorporated in engine harness.
This is one I made up in custom sheathing with a blower motor delete for an electric A/C install.
Much bigger cabling.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Fully incorporated in engine harness.
This is one I made up in custom sheathing with a blower motor delete for an electric A/C install.
Much bigger cabling.

I have been researching that very thing (making my own) - after realizing it is all incorporated, which I honestly knew but was hoping there was a work around.

Your harness looks great! I see PP sells a harness and there are a couple of UK producers...

Thanks again timmy2/Dennis -

Erik

[timmy2]

Hi Erik, I replied to your PM.

[ant7]

Nice job Dennis

Originally Posted by timmy2

Fully incorporated in engine harness.
This is one I made up in custom sheathing with a blower motor delete for an electric A/C install.
Much bigger cabling.

[Bitte ein Bit]

Well, finally have an update.




After starting at point zero and buying a brand new battery I began tearing things down and checking grounds, connections, cleaning contacts, etc...

Under the car and after removing the starter I found the wire from the starter to the alternator (red) was exposed about 1-2 inches...friction or overheating I am not quite sure AND I am not sure if once exposed it was contacting anything (Bare contact with starter? Arching??? As you know the area up there is tight).

So I started from there.

I removed the AC relay in the smugglers box. Entire AC deletion complete now leaving the harness at this point. I am sure the relay for the AC wasn't an issue but since it's in the ignition equation wanted to remove all doubt.




Bought new:

Grounding cables/Ground strap transmission to chassis
Ignition switch (electronic portion)
Voltage regulator
New starter (replaced under warranty - thanks Pelican!)
Key FOB for new key to be cut (not an issue but reading so much on tumbler replacement etc...just wanted to start fresh)
New DME...



Cleaned, wrapped, etc. all electrical contacts from front to back starting with the simple stuff - battery cables, grounds up front...

Even took out and cleaned up the ignition coil (original black Bosch).

Taped up any and all worn or questionable wiring and wiring covers going to the engine bay and starter. ((Until the new harness gets here so I can move the car to my work area))

Cleaned and lubricated mechanical switch on ignition (Used Tri-Flow).
Cleaned all contacts in the wiring for switch under the dash (looked good actually).

Installed new parts one at a time, reassembled using my volt meter every step of the way... (hooking up battery checking...disconnecting battery, etc...).


Installed everything up to the starter. One last time with eveything connected got the results from the volt meter checking the black battery cable and the yellow ignition wire. Both were good.


Installed the starter at 2am, hooked up the battery (nervously -if you recall from the posts once I connected the ground the starter would fire.)

This time - nothing. Whew.

Got in and finally got to turn the key and she fired right up...alternator light went dim and it ran like a champ.




With timing and a family emergency (which cut into everything and made it hard to actually trouble shoot for root cause) over the past two months I wasn't here to test everything for formal results.

Early on I remember removing the starter for testing and by gut feeling reconnected the battery to check voltage with the wires to the starter. The cable from the battery lit up which was good, but the ignition wire/yellow wire gave me a reading also...it wasn't much but back then it made me wonder of there was just enough current to keep the starter turning even with no key in the ignition...(?)

So, we had an emergency and with airport time, and hotel time just kept bookmarking things from the internet, articles and of course this forum.




My gut says ignition switch - and it just wasn't cutting power to the starter. A short? Old? etc...there was some key slop and it for sure didn't feel as accurate/precise as the new switch...

Sadly - leaving in such a rush I just ended up ordering parts (from hours of reading posts here and owners with similar problems) as I was in no place to trouble shoot.

I really wish I would have kept notes and more photos because I feel like I didn't really find the gremlin/problem but for me I am happy at this point.




I am sure there will be heavy critics, oh the internet - but hopefully this can help others.



The break in continuity of trying to fix the problem really threw a wrench into things and I am the last person to just throw new parts at a problem (oil cooled BMW motorcycle and old Land Rover owner) and understand I/we need to properly diagnose the REAL cause of said issues.





Just wanted to thank everyone for responding, PM'ing me and the phone calls. Very, very grateful.

For the record -I didn't mean to write a book here, but man do I hate when these types of posts are never ended/finished or having a final outcome.




Lastly I am ordering a new harness for the engine, and voltmeter to be tastefully installed. I am paranoid a bit so will probably start looking at battery disconnect switches.


...terrible time coming out to a car in your garage trying to start on it's own - ha?


Happy New Year everyone!

Erik