Never Skip the PPI: $51K Car, $44K in Repairs - Need Advice

[Otter74]

I came here this morning to say things, got distracted, came back now and found most of it had already been said. I'll add a few things.

If you are a handy home wrench - and you say that you are - then you can do everything except the engine work, *if* it needs it.

If the gasket - VC? it's not said but it seems like this - is "partially protruding" then the VC has been overtightened and of course it's leaking. Remove VCs, check head studs, replace VCs with new reusable silicone gaskets, don't over-tighten

TOD leaks are hard to get to on a 3.2 but they're cheap and easy to fix, access aside. I just did some of mine.

Shift coupler bushings can be done in an hour for like $15, or get all fancy and get a PSJ if you want to be a big spender.

Trans mounts can be done in another hour, new mounts not expensive.

New bushings and ball joints in front is more work, but doable. Ball joint requires a spacial tool you might could borrow from someone here.

Front shocks get replaced when the front suspension is apart, rear shocks just bolt in.

Sway bar bushings and end links are as easy as you think they are.

Tie rod ends are easy peasy. Use the kind of cheap splitter you can get from Harbor Freight, the joint will be apart in 15 seconds.

If 84s are still before axles with a hub-end stub axle that's part of the axle assembly (was that 85? I don't remember) then you can get whole new axles and just bolt them in, or boot kits for like $100-150 and replace them yourself.

Brake rotors and pads are as easy as you think they are. Check wheel bearing adjustment when you do this.

Brake hoses are as easy as you think they are.

Don't know what the speedo and tach issues are, but you can probably send them to John Bell and he'll fix it for a couple hundred or something.

2/3 of that big scary number is worst-case engine work that it very likely doesn't need, and the rest is stuff you can do yourself to eliminate 90% of the cost.

Originally Posted by johnnythunderr

TL;DR: Bought a "well-sorted" 1984 911 for $51K without a PPI. Post-purchase inspection revealed $44K in needed repairs including engine rebuild. Don't be me.

• Engine rebuild recommended: $29,640 - Oil leaking from cylinders, suspected broken lower head studs on cylinder #2, cylinder #6 gasket partially protruding, "triangle of death" leaks (PCV, oil pressure sender). The shop can't say for certain if the engine needs a full rebuild, but they're quoting for what they think to be the worst possible outcome and will know nothing further until they're able to actually pull and inspect the engine.

Everything Else That's Wrong:

• Transmission: Shift coupler bushings shot ($585)
• Transmission mounts worn allowing 1/2" vertical play ($617)
• Front & rear shocks leaking, bushings cracked ($2,608)
• Control arms and ball joints completely worn ($2,724)
• All sway bar bushings and links need replacement ($735)
• Tie rod ends blown ($650)
• CV boots ready to split ($900)
• All brake rotors warped and scored, pads due ($2,357)
• Front and rear brake hoses cracking ($1,045)
• Tachometer needs internal repair ($200)
• Speedometer/odometer issues ($500)
• Various other smaller items

Total recommended repairs: $44,050.96

My Questions for the Community
Engine decision: Is it worth rebuilding a 1984 3.2L at this cost, or should I source a used engine?
Prioritization: If I can't do everything at once, what's the safest order to tackle these repairs?
Legal recourse: The seller clearly misrepresented the condition. Anyone had success pursuing sellers for significant misrepresentation like this?
Cut and run: At what point do you just accept the loss and move on?

The Lesson (Please Learn From My Stupidity)
GET A PPI. ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS.
I don't care if:

• The seller has a binder full of receipts
• The car is 3,000 miles away
• You can't find a convenient shop
• The seller seems trustworthy
• You're "good at spotting problems"
• The photos look great
• You're excited and don't want to lose the deal

None of that matters. A 2-hour, $400 inspection could have saved me from this $44K nightmare.
If you can't arrange a proper PPI, walk away from the deal. There will always be another car. I thought I was being reasonable by relying on maintenance records, but those records clearly didn't tell the whole story.
The seller either:

1. Knew about these issues and lied
2. Was completely oblivious to the condition of their own car
3. Had been taking it to shops that weren't being honest about needed repairs

None of those scenarios end well for the buyer.

For Those Who've Been Here
If you've dealt with similar situations - major undisclosed issues after purchase - I'd love to hear how you handled it. Did you pursue the seller? Focus on the repairs? Cut your losses?
Right now I'm sitting on a car I paid $51K for that needs $44K in work to be roadworthy, and I'm kicking myself for the most expensive lesson I've ever learned.

Don't be me. Get the PPI.

--

1984 911 Carrera, 123K miles, currently more of a very expensive paperweight than a sports car

[toniwonkanobi]

Originally Posted by johnnythunderr

Clearly that shop had me confused with a dentist or someone who makes dental-sized income.

Ha! I am with the other guy. Send it to Rothsport and have them do their thing

[josephvman]

Sorry if I didn't read each and every post carefully, but it looks like they're basing the car possibly needing an engine rebuild on an unconfirmed broken head stud? They didn't do a compression/leakdown test?

The prices quoted are insane, and it looks a bit to me like the shop was throwing everything at you to see what would stick.

Half of the stuff on that list would apply to the majority of the air-cooled 911's for sale today, unless a shop just went through the entire car and sorted it all, and that's a car that you're not going to get for $51k.

This is a 41 year old car, and parts and labor continues to get more expensive. I think anyone who buys one of these cars today needs to expect to spend $10-20k off the bat, unless you can wrench on it yourself. The pic looks great, and it's probably going to be a great car for you once you work through a few things and spend some money. Good news is they aren't getting any cheaper, and your depreciation is pretty much limited to the money you have to spend to make it safe and reliable.

I'm sure there are plenty of guys on this forum that would be happy to get you out of the car for what you paid for it.

[pmax]

The pre-purchase pics...

let's see them.

[85RedCarrera]

Originally Posted by josephvman

Sorry if I didn't read each and every post carefully, but it looks like they're basing the car possibly needing an engine rebuild on an unconfirmed broken head stud? They didn't do a compression/leakdown test?

Did they pull the valve covers/do leakdown test/ apply torque to the head studs? I agree- what is the "possible" broken head studs assessment based upon?

[johnnythunderr]

@pmax https://imgur.com/a/36UpuhO

Sadly, those are the only ones I still have access to. Most of the photos existed in the original PCA Mart post. But since the listing is no longer active, the photos are inaccessible. These are all that remain from our text threads.

[johnnythunderr]

Originally Posted by 85RedCarrera

Did they pull the valve covers/do leakdown test/ apply torque to the head studs? I agree- what is the "possible" broken head studs assessment based upon?

They didn't pull anything. The assessment was based on location of the oil leaks, a "popping" sound by cyl #2 and the "case side cylinder gasket partially sticking out" by cyl #6. Marque Motors confirmed that the gasket sticking out was typically indicative of broken head studs.

[Glenfield]

You’ve been given a great steer.

You are never more vulnerable than the day you purchase your first Porsche and take it to your first mechanic. I made that mistake and ended up with an engine rebuild I didn’t need. Painful lesson learned.

Drive the car and get another opinion or two. You really have to take time and be cynical. You also very likely don’t need to do all of that now. Do what’s required for safety and get a feel for the car before you do the rest.

[kltarga72]

I new I had broken head studs so dropped the engine with the help from Porsche friends. Took to a shop in Georgia and had him rebuild the top end. This was on a 3.0 and the case did not need any attention. He resurfaced the heads, replaced one cam and cam follower and associated parts. Of course with engine out all rubber intake boots etc. were replaced along with gaskets where needed. This was four years ago and my total cost for parts and labor was less than $6000.00. This mechanic had his shop just down the road from Road Atlanta Raceway and had worked on Porsche's for over 35 years so he knew what he was doiing. Unfortunatly he passed away this last year.

All the other repairs you can accomplish yourself and with the help of P car friends.

[pmax]

Originally Posted by johnnythunderr

@pmax https://imgur.com/a/36UpuhO

Sadly, those are the only ones I still have access to. Most of the photos existed in the original PCA Mart post. But since the listing is no longer active, the photos are inaccessible. These are all that remain from our text threads.

Thanks.

Some corrosion on the oil tube but don't see any obvious leakage here, certainly if the PO wasn't "mechanically inclined" not something he would notice anyway.



Take some good clear pictures of each cylinder and post them.

The idle also appears low for a cold start.

Car looks good.

[Ryan_Cunningham]

Originally Posted by johnnythunderr

I'm fairly handy with a wrench. I've historically done all the maintenance on my and my wife's vehicles and have rebuilt a few vintage Honda motorcycle engines. That said, I have zero confidence in my ability to overhaul a Porsche 3.2L. Based on second shop's opinions, I'm already planning to try and tackle the suspension, brakes and transmission mounts myself. But given that our garage space is no longer conducive to mechanic work (thanks, kids), I'll probably have to spread that work out as I can get access to a 2-post lift to rent.

I've comprised the following list of local places to get second opinions in my region, but I'm not entirely sure which will strike to best balance of budget, honesty and quality:

• Steve's Imports
• Matrix Integrated
• A&P Specialties
• Marque Motors

If anyone else has suggestions for other shops or has positive experiences with any of the above, please do chime in! I'll take any help I can get right now.

Before I got my two 911s I had never done any car maintenance. There is so much information out there, including YouTube videos - You can definitely do the suspension, brakes, and mounts. I did all of those with a Quickjack and have dropped engines three times now.

Plus you'll get the satisfaction of knowing you can do it!

[Duc Hunter]

I WAS KIDDING ABOUT ROTHSPORT PEOPLE!!!!

I love Jeff Gamroth and the boy, way more than OP needs and wa more money Han they want to spend. I was only using them top highlight the absurdity of the original shops pricing.

[toniwonkanobi]

Originally Posted by Duc Hunter

I WAS KIDDING ABOUT ROTHSPORT PEOPLE!!!!

I love Jeff Gamroth and the boy, way more than OP needs and wa more money Han they want to spend. I was only using them top highlight the absurdity of the original shops pricing.

So for Jeff to do a ~4.0L build with the 997 plenums, MoTeC, coil-on-plug, etc., what is that now? Like $100k, excluding the donor/core M64?

[johnnythunderr]

Take out second mortgage, go to Rothsport. Check. Check. Thanks for the help, everyone! We’re done here.

[PeteKz]

Johnny, I live not far from the PDX reality distortion zone too (SW WA). Where are you? Are you a member of PCA and the Oregon region? If not, join now.

Second, I echo all the comments here about the excessive prices from that shop. I don't know Trafton, other than I've seen some of their ads in Anzeiger. I think this is their "opening bid" and see how much you want to spend. There are Porsche owners who spend stupid money on their cars, and shops love to see them walk in the door. But, I think you will find the other Porsche shops in this area also are "very proud" of their services (especially Rothsport). $30K to rebuild the engine almost certainly is not necessary on a car with 123,000 miles, but I've seen many 911's advertised as having "rebuilt engines" with a lot less mileage than that, and I'm damn sure they didn't need it--lower studs were all it needed, with heads refreshed "while you're in there."

Third: As others have said, most of this stuff can be put off until "later" or you can do them yourself a little at a time. If you need local help or advice, PM me. There are at least a half dozen active Pelicans in this area.

Fourth, have you actually driven the car? You didn't mention that in your initial posting. How does it drive? Does it steer straight, does it wander on the road, pull to one side? Do the brakes vibrate or pull? Does it clutch and shift okay? How much oil does it drip? Etc., etc.

Fifth and final (for now), remember the rule, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" and apply that here. Instead, drive it at every opportunity and keep a list of things that need to be fixed, or you just want to fix or upgrade.

[johnnythunderr]

Originally Posted by PeteKz

Johnny, I live not far from the PDX reality distortion zone too (SW WA). Where are you? Are you a member of PCA and the Oregon region? If not, join now.

Second, I echo all the comments here about the excessive prices from that shop. I don't know Trafton, other than I've seen some of their ads in Anzeiger. But, I think you will find the other Porsche shops in this area also are "very proud" of their services.

Third: As others have said, most of this stuff can be put off until "later" or you can do them yourself a little at a time. If you need local help or advice, PM me. There are at least a half dozen Pelicans in this area.

Fourth, have you actually driven the car? You didn't mention that in your initial posting. How does it drive? is the steering straight does it wander on the road, pull to one side? Do the brakes vibrate? Does it clutch and shift okay? How much oil does it drip? Etc., etc.

Fifth and final (for now), remember the rule, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" and apply that here. Instead, drive it at every opportunity and keep a list of things that need to be fixed, or you just want to fix or upgrade.

First thing I did was join PCA and the Oregon chapter! Admittedly, I haven’t looked into what benefits it offers or its community. I mainly joined for access to the PCA Mart.

As for driving it, I’ve been doing so every chance I get! I’ve only had it about two weeks but have driven it nearly every other day since. To me, it drives wonderfully, but I also haven’t been pushing it, since I wanted to get a clean bill of health back from inspection before revving it out or hucking it into corners. That said, there were definitely oddities I noticed…

For starters, it didn’t have quite the oomph I was anticipating. I know it’s not a modern supercharged V6, but I did think it’d have more get up than my modern-ish Tacoma.

Secondly, it squeaks. A lot. On anything but fresh pavement, it’s quite the mouse. I’m guessing this is probably all the worn bushings mentioned in the estimate.

No odd vibrations or pulling steering. She drives straight as arrow and idles crisply.

Lastly, I haven’t seen any drips in the driveway, but there’s definitely a slight burned oil smell after a moderate drive. I don’t see any smoke and thankfully, no fuel smells.

I’ve had plenty of vehicles from the 70’s and 80’s and all had their rattles, quirks and smells. So I’ve pretty much assumed this 911 would have the same.

[PeteKz]

When you had the PPI done here, did they find any signs of collision damage or repairs? If not, then I think you got a reasonable deal, although the seller should have mentioned squeaks and oil leaks. Most of them leak some oil, and it often drips down on the heat exchangers, which makes smoke and smell. That's part of the "charm."

Late edit: Does the AC work?

[johnnythunderr]

Thankfully, no signs of collision. But I’m honestly not completely sure they checked for that. All the items listed were mechanical and not structural.

As for AC, the compressor has been bypassed. The AC was listed as non-functional by the seller in the original ad.

[jrwilson]

I found my car in New York and I'm in Toronto so I tried to find a local person to do a PPI. I got a recommendation for a Porsche place nearby and for $900 the guy barely looked at the car, took the worst photos I've ever seen, and proceeded to say it was complete junk but that if I wasn't interested after his inspection, he might be. He knew it was a solid car for a good price and wanted to snake it out from under me.

So, basically you can't trust anyone to be honest. That mechanic sounds like a lot of Porsche mechanics I've talked to - they don't care about saving you money or being creative on the fixes, they just replace everything, only using Porsche parts instead of reproduction or servicable used parts. I wasted $3,000 on one of those types for $500 worth of parts and labour before I realized I could do the majority of this work myself.

You can, however, trust the people in your local aircooled clubs - enthusiasts. And people here.

[Duc Hunter]

Originally Posted by pmax

Thanks.

This sure looks like a leaky valve cover dripping on the SSI header’s heater box. Many air cooled cars drip here. Many wait at least until the next oil change, as an oil change is required to swap the valve covers. I am waiting for my next oil change to do mine, and my car has a leak like this on the passenger side valve covers. Has for 2 years. Not too much oil so I ahve not worried about it.