The Ideal Shop.

[GeorgeM]

I just dropped my car off at RUF this morning for an alignment and corner balance and to see if they can figure out my rough idle and recent drop in performance.

Of course, the reception was great and Alois came out to say hello and meet my wife . I met him twice before at his annual open house, not sure if he remembered me, but at least he acted like he did.

Spent about an hour with the service manager talking about the car, what they would look for in troubleshooting the problem, and what parts I would need, since I'll be ordering them online (to save A LOT of cash).

We didn't discuss prices, which I'm a little nervous about. Alois did say that regular servicing at "very competitive rates" is their bread and butter, not the $200K RUFmobiles that you see in magazines. So we'll see what that means.

I'll file a report when I pick up the car in a couple of weeks.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Grady Clay

Clearly there are some strong opinions here.

Originally posted by RoninLB


I don't need them helping to screw up my 911. I can screw it up myself.

Originally posted by Grady Clay
Ronin,
Please don’t paint everyone the same color.

You just may not be near a good shop.

There are some incompetents, slackers, and even criminals in the auto business.

or you feel YOU can do what YOU want better than anyone else.

When a shop screws something up they fix it, when you screw something up – you pay.

When I repeat my simple comment to shop owner friends it may lead into good stories with laughter included. It's a bit provacitive, but it's great for triggering conversation. If I need an in-house question answered it's already been paid for thru my favors/ at least. If he's new to me it probably becomes 4 Large cans of coffee for a quick answer. My personal prob is that you may have to see the whole package to understand my meaning of words.

I'm near some very good shops that produce very nice work.

"incompetents, slackers, and even criminals in the auto business."....... check out the boat repair business for good entertainment.. even the "consumer protection" guys are amazed and relatively unable to do their work. Forget about insurance adjusters. The adj may see the same repair pic from various boat yards and it hasn't registered that it's the same pic.

"When a shop screws something up they fix it, when you screw something up – you pay."..... sounds good in "words". Actually the poor customer may not know the reason for the continuing prob and he keeps shelling out big bucks till the prob is eventually solved due to "practice makes perfect" mechanics. The 911 word may take thousands of bucks for "practice makes perfect"

"Clearly there are some strong opinions here."....... peace brother.

[Grady Clay]

OK, what if a shop has a chassis dyno and every tune/service gets a quick turn and print-out? Most shops that have chassis dynos use them for serious test & tune. These are expensive capital equipment. Everyone benefits from greater use. A regular customer gets to track the performance. An occasional customer gets to spot a potential problem. The test & tune benefit from more experienced techs. Everyone benefits from spreading the costs.
Is this something you would utilize?

A chassis dyno is not a substitute for a proper road test. During a road test the tech is looking at throttle response (hesitations, flat spots, light throttle running, trailing throttle, etc.) The other issues are wind leaks, shimmy/vibrations, engine/trans/road noise, Shifting (syncros, linkage, etc.), functioning of everything (instruments, doors, windows, seat adjust, mirrors, A/C, heat, cruse, and much more.

What if a shop has an engine dyno? If done properly, it is 15 minutes to go on and 5 minutes to come off. Every engine rebuild benefits greatly. For test & tune, this has huge advantage over a chassis dyno in terms of accuracy and resolution. If you had your fresh DIY engine, would you bring it in to a good shop for a dyno break-in and tune?

There are some shops that can align a car (sorta) and there are techs that can align a Porsche. What premium would you put on state-of-the-art Porsche alignment? What does a proper alignment consist of? Certainly toe, camber, and corner balance. Actually measuring and setting caster. An important issue is that all the hardware and adjustments must be in good condition. A good alignment process also includes inspection of the shocks, ball joints, tie rod ends, steering assembly, suspension connections (bushings), tires, wheels, and more.
No wonder some 911s drive better than others and perform better on track. What would you prefer?


Ronin,
“I'm near some very good shops that produce very nice work.”
Do you use their services occasionally?

In the mid '70s I helped write the Colorado “Motor Vehicle Repair Act of 1977”, as Amended, CRS 42-9-101. http://www.ago.state.co.us/CONSPROT/statutes/MOTREPAI.HTM
One of the primary features of this statute is it requires good communications.


The "practice makes perfect" mechanics are out there and not in the good shops. I once interviewed a mechanic who wanted to move to Colorado from C……… Right away he told me of all the “short cuts” and ways to cheat that he knew. Needless to say I sent him packing and had some discreet conversations with dealers and shops both here and out west.

A related issue is there may be a problem and it is not obvious the exact cause or appropriate fix. There are several approaches to the solution: You can do an extremely through diagnosis, sometimes costing much more than the fix. Is it appropriate to spend $2K diagnosis for a $100 problem? Another approach is to replace everything related. Again throwing lots of money at a potentially simple problem and knot knowing exactly what fixed it. A third approach is to do the simplest and least cost thing first. When that doesn’t fix the problem, do the next least simple and costly. This sometimes gives the appearance of "practice makes perfect" mechanics. Even the best professional mechanics and DIY owners can misdiagnose a problem. The key is good communication between the shop and owner.


Bigrubberjeep, looks like you found a good shop. You hit on another sign; good communication, even when he wasn’t making 2c from you. That is the long view.
A few months ago on this Forum a Pelican was telling about someone who wouldn’t talk more than 30 seconds unless he made a sale of something. The short view.


I think another sign of the “Ideal Shop” is that they regularly monitor the technical forums, Pelican and other. If I were doing a shop or dealer today, I would dedicate time (my own and others) to posting every interesting problem, proposed diagnosis, and eventual solution. Having the hundreds (thousands) of brains is invaluable.

Best,
Grady

[zotman72]

This thread reminded me of a time when suddenly I had a major problem with Audi S6 Avant driving home. It would buck like a Bronco (local expression) upon mashing the throttle. I just happened to be driving by one of the local Audi tuner shops --so I pulled in to have them look at it. I suspected a blown intercooler hose. The nimrod service rep would not even look without hooking his computer first ($120 automatic charge). I said wait a minute sir while I exit stage right. What sort of service rep will not even look/scope without his mandatory computer diagnostic charge/crutch? I was right too, the intercooler hose had split and I have never considered going back to clowns again. YMMV.

[Grady Clay]

Bill,

You bring up another good point.
The shop you describe is possibly undercapitalized and some equipment manufacturer/rep sold him an expensive piece of diagnostic equipment “on credit.” This pressures him to use it (for a fee) at every opportunity so he can make the payments. Bad idea.

The “Ideal Shop” is properly capitalized. They owe nothing on their equipment.

There is a segment of the auto industry that prays on small shops, selling/leasing expensive “necessary” equipment. This is one reason small shops go under so often. It is also a driving force for the shop to cheat the customer to pay the bill.

Best,
Grady

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Grady Clay

OK, what if a shop has a chassis dyno........ Is this something you would utilize?

What if a shop has an engine dyno? If you had your fresh DIY engine, would you bring it in to a good shop for a dyno break-in and tune?

There are some shops that can align a car (sorta) and there are techs that can align a Porsche. What premium would you put on state-of-the-art Porsche alignment?
No wonder some 911s drive better than others and perform better on track. What would you prefer?


Ronin,
“I'm near some very good shops that produce very nice work.”
Do you use their services occasionally?



The "practice makes perfect" mechanics are out there and not in the good shops.

A related issue is there may be a problem and it is not obvious the exact cause or appropriate fix.

Chassis dyno would be nice entertainment to map my torque curve. An Engine dyno would be a home run. I'm not searching for the last available hp for the track so I haven't gone out of my way for the info. For a break-in is a maybe If I know the boss.
That said a dyno is a wonderful tool that seperates shops that have and those that don't. The owner has to have confidence that he'll have the customers to support the expense. May God Bless those that "have".

Alignment with a good tech is not necessary for me. I do my own and that's good enough. My car tracks good and tires wear perfectly. A temp gauge at 3 tire areas confirms my alignment and tire wear confirms it again. Track alignment is a different animal imo. I never had to do it and don't have experience for a performance job.
fwiw, part of setting up my itty bitty home garage is being able to do alignments.

"Ronin,
“I'm near some very good shops that produce very nice work.”
Do you use their services occasionally?"
------- yep. when I have a relatively.... private, unable to state here issue. It's a kinda long term wash dealing with me. I don't even sell good used parts that I have. I've already given parts away freebie to pelicanheads. I like buying tools that shop friends don't have so they will have access if needed. I don't have a lot of $. I have no kids and no responsibilities. Although the bride tries to keep me dressed properly. I think it's another problem I have of not looking in the mirror unless I really really have to. My 911 is more imp than clothes.

Some problems are a diagnistic headache, granted. Sometimes a wrench knows that another wrench has experience on that issue and refuses to suggest the other guy. Eventually the car owner figures out the ball game thru other owners and M----- F----- the original shop.. it's a small 911 world.

A 911 independant shop is a tough business.. there are just so many chips to pass around and the newbie shop wants a cut of the fixed supply of chips. It's a social problem waiting to happen imo.

I didn't mean to interfere with your research.. You let loose with those trigger words, "Clearly there are some strong opinions here."...... Bingo.

[Schrup]

Originally posted by GeorgeM
I just dropped my car off at RUF this morning for an alignment and corner balance and to see if they can figure out my rough idle and recent drop in performance.

We didn't discuss prices, which I'm a little nervous about. Alois did say that regular servicing at "very competitive rates" is their bread and butter,

I'll file a report when I pick up the car in a couple of weeks.

George, I can't wait to see how this goes. At least you know you'll get qaulity. I just put new injectors in my car & it seemed to smooth out my idle. I scored them off the board for $100 I had my car aligned at Fordahl Motorsports, the owner is the Chief Engineer for the Alex Job ALMS GT champions. I cost me $250. Problem is, they are so focused on race cars that it can be rough for a guy bringing in a street car.

I hope all goes well for you George, please let us know, good or bad.

[Grady Clay]

There are some examples here of the good and successful. There are also some indications of people who could change their ways for everyone’s benefit.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?threadid=179673&perpage=20&pagenumber=2

SEE, this is what the “Ideal Shop” err … parts house … is all about. No one can be successful in business without good and friendly communications with their customers. Wayne knows this and practices it.

Best,
Grady

[banjomike]

*minimum required:
*honest
*does good work in a reasonable time period
*good communication
*fair rate

things that matter a lot:
*location, close to work or home (my VW mechanic in Berkeley would give a free ride to the BART station when you dropped off your car!) one of the mechanics I use now is within walking distance of home, and the other is just a 10 min walk to work.
*explains options (when I got my clutch done, my mechanic asked me if I wanted a lighter flywheel, and then explained the pros and cons) that's a real plus for me
*clearly loves porsches
*good rate, the guy close to work is $30/hour less than the other guy!!
*service service service (my mechanic has on a few occasions noticed things that needed a little adjustment, and just did it while he was in there. (when he did my clutch, he did a bunch of while you're in there things, and also noticed a valve noise, so adjusted the valves for a 1 hour charge!! and adjusted the mixture and timing just right)
*willing to look and spend a bit of time when you stop by with that scary new noise it just started making.

things that are nice

*likes to talk about the cars and the work, it just makes it more fun!
*gathers and sells cool used parts at great prices


I have two mechanics that are tops! How lucky am I? The expensive one close to home advertises in Excellence and is well known, and when I walk home after dropping off my car I walk right past another nationally known pcar shop. The cheap one close to work (East Bay) works by referal only, and is well worth knowing (he specializes in air cooled porsches). Since we aren't promoting anyone in this thread, anyone who wants to know can drop me a PM.

[Laura-Hergesheimer MotorS]

Grady,

Very good topic for discussion, lots of good views and feedback. As a shop owner, I find this very helpful and can look at our operation and see areas for improvement.

Thank You.

Laura, Hergesheimer MotorSports

[GeorgeM]

Picked up the car from RUF yesterday. They had it there for about 12 days while I was out of town for work and over the Labor Day weekend.

The list of stuff I wanted them to do:

Compression/leakdown check
Figure out rough idle and decrease in peformance
Alignment
Corner balance
Wheel balance
Correct for steering wheel shimmy while braking
Replace fuel injectors (their suggestion)

I got the injectors from Pelican just in time to deliver them on our way to Salzburg for the long weekend. The plan was to pick it up on the return trip home on Monday. When I called to tell them I'd drop the parts off, they had already finished all the other work and confirmed that the Monday pickup would be okay.

So, they got everything but the rough idle. The injectors helped a bit, but it's still a little stumbly. The increase in performance, however, is very noticable. It has much better throttle response across the revs... a worthy expense. The car drives super smooth with no more steering wheel shimmy. They ended up turning the rotors to fix that problem. Compression and leakdown were outstanding, "it's like a new motor", the service manager said. Not bad for 130K miles and 2 years worth of monthly DE events.

They took a little license and did a few extra things that I didn't ask for: a new lighted key head (mine had neither the porsche crest, light or button remaining), they installed valve stem supports on the wheels (didn't know they still made those things) and replaced the missing a/c belt which I had removed. It all added less than €25 to the bill.

They also washed it and filled up the tank at no extra charge (they own the Shell station next door to the shop BTW).

With respect to their "competitive rates", their hourly rate is €70. That's only about €5 more than a local shop I'd been using. Well worth the extra cash and 1.5 hour drive for piece of mind and superb customer service. The bill was even in english.

I believe I just found my new shop...

[89911]

Originally posted by Grady Clay

The purpose of this thread is to define the ideal shop or dealer using your experience and imagination.

Best,
Grady

Unless your going to go out and start your own shop, what really is the point? Creating the ideal shop is one thing. Making it successful, profitable, and quality driven is another. Find one that has been in business for many years and has satisfied clients. And no one shop is perfect. I'm not trying to come off as condesending. I just have a picture of someone with a long questionaire interviewing a grease covered mechanic who is way behind schedule.

[Grady Clay]

89911

There is nothing nefarious about my question.
On this Forum there have been many anecdotal stories about shoddy treatment of customers and a few complementing good performance. By proposing the question as I did, I kept it in the abstract and toward the positive.

“The purpose of this thread is to define the ideal shop or dealer using your experience and imagination.”

Collectively everyone learns from an exercise like this. The shops and dealers get some valuable insight into what their (potential) customers think they want. Us pelicans, learn from each other the various aspects of the shops and dealers and perhaps what we should expect.

Yes, it might serve as a “how to” for someone wanting to start a shop or dealership.

The ideal shop or dealer IS one that is successful, profitable, and quality driven. Most important, it serves the varying needs of its customers. What are all the services the Ideal shop or dealer can offer? Are those services that the customers want and will utilize?
As an example; it is ideal to have most every spare part available. Should a shop or dealer put 75% of his investment in parts inventory? Of course not, inventory should be related to turnover. With the good service from PelicanParts, PCNA, and many others, a shop or dealer has access to a huge inventory he doesn’t have his investment in.

What is the ideal?

Best,
Grady

[Schrup]

Goerge, it sounds as if you found "The Ideal Shop". I'm glad everything worked out well & that Ruf lives up to the legend they have created. Sounds like a first class operation.

[scottb]

Originally posted by Grady Clay
The ideal shop.

If you were to take your prize Porsche to a shop, what kind of shop would you want?

I'd want Dave, Tyson, Jeremy and the rest of the gang at TRE. They're smart, honest, quality guys. Enuf said!

[Grady Clay]

Here is a related thread about mobile auto repair and some talented 911 mechanics.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?postid=1773543#post1773543.

Best,
Grady

[AUTOBAHNX]

Good Read:
I would of course, recommend our shop. owner/mechanic. pca member 15 years, POC member etc. Clean, no lost parts, exceptional quality, no rip offs......Also agree with ideal customer. Cant put elmers glue and hold it together for $5.00.

Mechanics wanted
http:www.autobahnextremist.com

[porschenut]

For me, it's honesty, experience/skill, and good price.

The shop I bring my car to is all three. I brought my car to them a couple times to have stuff replaced that I thought it needed, and they called me later to say some of the items were either fine as is or they recommended delaying the work for one reason or another. If I ask a shop to do some work and they come back and explain why it's an unneeded expense, that tells me they're looking out for me. They earn my trust that way. If they also charge fairly and do good work, they earn my continued business. If they have these three items covered, the other considerations are not important.

I do have an opinion on shop cleanliness as a factor, however. When I bought my car last year, the previous owner left a big stack of all the service receipts in the glovebox, and they all were from the same shop covering the 18 years since the car was new. So, after I bought it I decided to drive by the place and see what it was that made him so loyal. I got there, and the place was in a not-so-good neighborhood (though centrally located and convenient), it had absolutely no parking except two painted boxes on the sidewalk, and the shop front as well as counter area were ugly and cluttered up with stacks of newspapers, old boxes, and lot of old junk parts everywhere. After a close look I kept right on going, convinced to start taking the car elsewhere - some place that had an upscale, comfortable atmosphere. I took it to a dealer (oops, won't do that again with an older car). But then I realized my attitude was prejudiced and I was judging the book by its cover, and I decided to give them a chance. The experience has been a real eye-opener, and bottom line is that after two visits, I don't want to take my car anywhere else.

Point is, though, the outward appearance of the shop can make or break you with regard to prospective new clients. If they're not comfortable bringing the car in the first time, all the skill and honesty in the world won't mean a thing. That said, I don't want a shop with shiny white floors and mechanics wearing clean white overalls.

From my description, I'm sure you know which shop I'm talking about.

[Franklin]

Honesty, Competence, Cleanliness, Friendliness, honest advice, reasonable prices, Gee, sounds like the Rennenhaus at 3rd and Broadway. Grady are you thinking about opening a shop? If you do I can guarantee you at least one customer.

[DarrylD]

In my world, the shop that gets my business is where you speak directly to "your" mechanic who teaches and informs in addition to being a "nutz-on" expert wrench whose skills inspire awe.