Problems with water cooled 996 and 986?

hkspwrsche · 02-04-2005, 08:01 AM

Has anyone heard of the issues with the poor casting of the water cooled 996 and 986 engine cases? (I thought I posted this yesterday but it was either removed or didnt go through.)

Thanks,

speeder · speeder's Garage

Try posting it on the 996 or Boxster board and you might get an answer. This is the air-cooled 911 forum. Good luck.

hkspwrsche · 02-04-2005, 08:59 AM

I'm aircooled and there isnt much activity on the 996 board

AFJuvat · 02-04-2005, 09:04 AM

Some of the earlier 986 and 996 engine cases had a problem with the bore at the rear main or rear intermediate shaft. The seals would let go and the car would lose most of its oil.

the cars with this problem seldom lasted past 20K miles and were replaced by Porsche under warranty.

Double check any 986\996 you are planning to buy for evidence of a rear main seal leak.

AFJuvat

wastintime · 02-04-2005, 11:18 AM

Even the later ones still have problems... they're just not designed to last, that's why the GT3 and all the race motors went back to the 964/993 cases

epbrown · 02-04-2005, 11:59 AM

I've been thinking of getting a 996, and from my research:

The rear main seal problem is current - 997 owners have already reported having the same problem with their cars.

I have yet to find anyone that's lost all of their oil. It appears to be less a leak than seepage, but because the cars are so new (and expensive) everyone goes ballistic over leaks aircooled guys wouldn't bat an eye at. Everyone has the seal replaced (about $1000 at a dealership, parts and labor), and Porsche will replace the engine if 3 seal replacements don't fix it. However, the engine casting seems to be at fault and the new engine could have the exact same problem. From what I've read, Porsche doesn't replace the engine a second time.

Some feel the problem is blown out of proportion, with the owners that have had the problem simply being a vocal minority, small percentage of the 160,000 996 owners. Even so, I'm leaning more towards the 993 now, or maybe a 928S4/GT (which matches the 996 for performance).

Bottom line: get a PPI and if it's leaking, run!

Emanuel

911mot · 911mot's Garage

http://www.911uk.com/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=12&TopicID=2280&PagePosition=2

very interesting thread about the reliabilty of the 996 engine.

Found this pic in there too

hkspwrsche · 02-04-2005, 12:58 PM

I was told by a porsche tech/shop owner that the 997 has a more reinforced case but the casting is still a weaker method. The rear main problem is actually from the crank walking around in the case from what I'm told. Local pca prez had his let go at 100k. few others have gone south as well. I was considering upgrading as they are getting cheaper but, I'm concerned about this weak casting issue.

jkarolyi · 02-11-2005, 09:50 AM

I've always thought Boxster was a cool car and considered one with a 3.4 conversion. But after reading that amazing (and long) 911uk.com thread above...there's LOTS of failed engines reported by the owners themselves, who are a small fraction of 996 owners...I will stick to the air cooled 911s.

Seriously...how many 993 engine failures have you heard of, and they're older!

epbrown · 02-11-2005, 03:49 PM

The 996 engine is looked at as a "consumer" engine - for competition engines (like the GT3), Porsche is still using the 993 case, modified; for that reason, those engines don't have the RMS problem.

Emanuel

CarreraS2 · 02-11-2005, 03:58 PM

As far as the 996 being a "consumer" engine, it seems to be true.

I was at Black Forest in San Diego a few months ago, and they were putting in a new crate engine in a customer's 996 that had blown the engine because of one of these engine problems. It was pretty cool, an almost complete engine (injection, intake, looked like everything except the exhaust and A/C) sitting on a pallet direct from the factory.

I asked him how much it cost. I was surprised at how cheap it was! I don't remember, but it was definately 4 figures. Something like $8K maybe.

Sheesh. Isn't a 911SC or Carrera crate engine from Porsche something like $30,000+??

I was amazed that you could buy a brand new complete 996 engine for so little. That entire engine for a little more than the price of a couple of sets of pistons for an earlier car.

Wil Ferch · 02-11-2005, 04:31 PM

Yes indeed...we're talking a rough number of $10k vs $30K for engines....new vs old school design.

Any wonder that Porsche is the most profitable car maker in the world...bar none? Riding on*both* the earlier racing and quality reputation....but building this car so it *could* sell for $30k ( Porsche badging notwithstanding)....but actually selling it for 2x-3x that.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist .......

Pity.....

Wil

Sonic dB · Sonic dB's Garage

I was at a local Porche Mechanics shop here in LA earlier this week, talking with the owner. This is the most respected shop in South LA. I mentioned the new Boxster, and he says "dont get a Boxster unless you lease it. They are s--t. We have seen tons of problems with that car and the 996...blown engines, rear main seals..."

His shop is holding a seminar in a couple of months titled something like "996 and Boxster, problems and upgrades". I plan to attend.

earlyapex · 02-11-2005, 04:54 PM

I've got over 16,000 trouble free miles on my 996. I guess I'm part of the quiet majority of 996 owners who don't have engine problems. Every 911 generation has their issues. The 996 was a new direction for Porsche. Some say a wrong direction, but the model helped keep the manufacturer alive as does their SUV to many Porsche dihards dismay. No one has the answer for the RMS leaks that some 996 owners are experiencing and Porsche has yet to come out with their answer. I've yet to read of a catastrophic engine failure due to an RMS leak unless the owner let the engine go completely dry. You've got to be very careful making conclusions based on a owners posting their horror stories on the internet. The majority of 996 owners aren't experiencing these issues. That said, many old adage that one should not own an expensive car out of warrantee is not a bad one.

Sonic dB · Sonic dB's Garage

early.... Im glad that you are having great success with your car so far.

For me, I drive the hell out of my car and would put 16K on it in about 5 months. I would never pay the premium for a 997, but a 996 Cab or new Boxster would be desirable. However... the problems stated on the forums as well as from the other source that I mentioned, have me scratching my head.

In contrast, I have seen JD Power and other rankings that have Porsche near the top in Quality with very few reported problems (other than the Cayenne). Is this because the demographic that buys new Porsches generally do not complain about the reported issues??

Still scratching my head over conflicting info and looking now again at 993s.

Laura · 02-11-2005, 05:56 PM

The 996 or 986 for $8K is a remanufactured motor not to be confused with "a brand new engine". A reasonable price and comes with a 2 year warranty. It is unreasonable that a Porsche motor would need replacing so early in it's life when an older 911 is just broken in at 50K and just maturing at 100K.

earlyapex · 02-11-2005, 08:35 PM

I've also seen the JD Power rankings. I think 996 owners as most car owners expect an expensive car to have no significant problems during their ownership. All you have to do is go to Rennlist, which has a very active 996 board and you'll see that 996 owners aren't very quiet about their complaints. That said, you've got to make your conclusions based on data and this data shows that the 996 motor is reliable. There haven't been any published official numbers of RMS leaks and engine replacements. Thus, we're left to make our own conclusions from the stories that we read on the various BBS's and from our mechanics. This doesn't even come close to being a good sampling of 996 vehicles in the world. We also have to come to accept the fact the Porsche as do most of the world's car manufacturers design their cars to be disposable. Engines, transmissions and other major components no longer are designed to be fixed. They're taken out and replaced as a unit. It has to make economic sense to them or else they wouldn't do it. This doesn't matter if the car is under warrantee. What do you do if your car is out of warrantee or approaching this date? You've got to make a decision that everyone who ones an expensive car and budget for repairs if you decide to keep your car or sell it and get something else. My friend budgets $6-10,000 every 15,000 miles to have his Ferrari engine serviced every 30k miles. Bruce Anderson advises all post-1995 993 owners to budget $6,000 for a top end rebuild when their check engine light goes on or they fail a smog test.

My partner has a 98 Boxster with well over 100k miles on it and he just put in a 3.4L 996 motor. He's very happy and it has run flawlessly. Should he worry about reliability? Sure as we all do. Does this keep him up at night? I think he's too busy driving.

We all have a threshold beyond which we pull back. It's unfortunate that the 996 has been given such a bad rap on the BBS's. I truly enjoy my 996. It's my daily driver and it has been on the open track quite a few times. Do I plan to keep it beyond its warrantee? Don't know. I get itchy after a couple of years.

Noel · 02-12-2005, 04:00 AM

I've seen more than a handful of 996s with blue smoke coming out of the exhaust at track events.

911nut · 911nut's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by earlyapex
Engines, transmissions and other major components no longer are designed to be fixed. They're taken out and replaced as a unit. It has to make economic sense to them or else they wouldn't do it.

Eric, the stuff can be fixed (apparantly Porsche has enough engines coming back on waranty that they can re-manufacture) but, with shop rates being what they are today, it's cheaper for the manufacturer to pay for a complete engine swap than have a dealer tear an engine down and fix it. Like you implied, simple economics.

Wil Ferch · 02-12-2005, 08:42 AM

Eric:

I find your defensive arguments somewhat spurious...

To claim you've driven 16k miles with no apparant problems as ample evidence.... does not tax the car or engine to any degree..

For my daily drivers...because I put *tons* of miles on them ( 20-26k a year for each of 3-4 cars for our family) ...we tend to drift toward the $4000-$5000 used Toyata Corrolla's and drive them up to close to 300,000 miles/each. No issues.

And I don't go nuts with PPI's and such...a quick walk-around is all it takes and I have NEVER gotten a bad one ( believe me...I've purchased more than one with how fast we go through cars !).

My point? The 996/997 occupies an elevated price point and should have higher expectations of performance...not just 0-60....but long term owner satisfaction.....

IMHO, of course...

Wil