Alternative Fuel Injectors

[dfink]

ischmitz - Thanks for the explanation. I do understand the basics of fuel injection. I can see where having the abilty to inject fuel in a boosted system would be of a great advantage. It just all seems over engineered if not using a sequential system. Before I was just blowing air when I said they may as well have done like chevy with an injector (squirter) just at the carb. It seems this would have worked just as well.
I guess I just have to get over the idea that they put in 6 injectors instead of 1 or 2 or just a carb. I do get the point that in general they can adjust for engine temp, atmospheric pressure etc. better with injection. It just seems that given the fact it is not sequential there would have been easier ways. I suppose it is possible that it started out being designed for sequential and if electronics cost prohibited they just compromised. I will now quit pondering this point. It doesn't matter because the car functions how it functions. Just out of curiosity do other cars with multiport injection funtion this way or are most sequential. Also I will take a look at the reading material you referenced. I am sure this all seems quite simple to someone.

[ischmitz]

All good questions, my limited understanding is that sequential helps with better atomization for improved emission (more complete combustion). Still, having six individual injectors close to the ports must be better than one big guy into the plenum since it is hotter there (less wall wetting). Just my guess....

[dfink]

Well did a little reading and here is my best guess. I feel a little better now about Porsche ability to design
First came the carb
Then came mechanical injection
Then came Throttle body injection
Then came multi-port injection (My car)
Then came sequential multi-port
The new thing is direct injection.

Basically I was thinking about todays technology on a 23 year old car. It appears at the time (mid 80s) that multi-port was the best transition from throttle body or mechanical injection. It gave the ability to control the mixture more precisely and delivered the fuel at the end of the runner to minimize wetting of the intake and hence poor emissions. I assume that if Porsche could have had the computing power needed to sequential multi-port at the time they would have. So I think my confusion was that the system is advanced enough that you forget it is 23 year old technology. I apologize to my car for doubting it and promise to be more understanding in the future.
So look forward to seeing the comparisons of the differing injectors in a somewhat scientific manner.

[beamonk]

Does anyone have a bosch part # for a 95 993 injector? I would like to find a suitable replacement if available.

[DUK]

0 280 150 786

[scarceller]

UPDATE: the 0280-150-364 injector test results are in! In summary the 0280-150-364 injectors are perfect replacements for the stock Carrera 0280-150-158 injectors! Read on and see for yourself.

If you recall back about a year ago I was going to test 0280-150-364 bosch injectors as replacements for the stock 0280-150-158 injectors in the Carrera 3.2L. See post #117 for details.

Well, I finally have my AirFuelRatio tuned to about 13.0AFR across the entire RPM range (1000-6800RPMs) while in a 2nd Gear WideOpenThrottle street run. So now I have a baseline to compare the 364 injectors to, here is what the AFR looks like with the stock 158 Injectors:



As you can see above I have spent many hours tunning my AFR to about 13.0AFR across the RPM range at WOT. Took me the better part of a year to learn howto burn chips and tune these cars.

Then once tuned with the 158 injectors I simply removed them and installed the 364 test injectors, the results where nice surprise! I did not even re-set the CO base mixture just dropped them in and re-ran the test. Here are the results for the 0280-150-364 injectors:



As you can see the 364 injectors ran about 13.1AFR across the RPM range. I conclude that these injectors are great alternative injectors to the 158 stock ones.

I can tell they run slightly leaner than the stock ones but not by much, next I will set the base CO and richen up the idle mixture back to spec of 14.2AFR, right now the idle AFR is about 14.5AFR a tad lean but can be easily brought down by simple adjustment of the CO screw on the AFM.

So there you have the results, took a year but they are in!

[dfink]

Good job......

[Wil Ferch]

Agree ... great tenacity and good work !!

[ianc]

Nice!

Next question (of course), is where can they be had and how much?

ianc

[rcaradimos]

http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.com/page/page/4511825.htm

[ianc]

Nice, $23 ea!

ianc

[s5uewf]

Thanks for the update and for the research and effort, Sal!

Thanks a lot!

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by rcaradimos

http://www.fuelinjector.citymaker.com/page/page/4511825.htm

Yup, get the 364 injectors here. This is the same fella who fronted me my test 364 injectors, his name is Howard and he was very helpful.

[scarceller]

UPDATE please Read! I made a small error reporting the part number of the test injectors, the test/replacement injector is a 0-280-150-364 NOT a 0-280-150-360!

When I got the test injectors from Howard he mentioned he was sending me a 360 or a 364 he sent me the 364 injectors but the bag they came in was marked as 360. Today I spoke to Howard and discovered that the injectors I recieved where 364s. The 364 injector is the one with the metal tip while the 360 has the plastic tip. Howard said either will work, but please keep in mind that only the 364 was tested by me.

Sorry, for the confusion. I really thought I had 360 injectors and found out today they are indeed 364s.

Here's a picture of the test injectors installed in my car, you can clearly see they are 364s:



Here's a pic of the other side:



Bottom line is please be sure you order/use the 0-280-150-364 injectors as I have not tested the 360s. Howard has hundreds of these 364 injectors for sale.

[s5uewf]

Sal, I took your advice and ordered the 364's from Howard. He was very helpful and the installation tonight after dinner took less than an hour.

The old injectors now can be sent out to Howard for rebuild/adjusting, and I'll have a spare set to use/lend/sell/etc.

The 364's seem to work great. Idle is rock solid. Start from STOP is easier than previously. Runs smooth.

Thanks for the hard work, research, and for sharing your test results.

I will be hitting the dyno, so will post my results and my AFR, etc. - as soon as the Summer fades and temps come down a bit.

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by s5uewf

Sal, I took your advice and ordered the 364's from Howard. He was very helpful and the installation tonight after dinner took less than an hour.

The old injectors now can be sent out to Howard for rebuild/adjusting, and I'll have a spare set to use/lend/sell/etc.

The 364's seem to work great. Idle is rock solid. Start from STOP is easier than previously. Runs smooth.

Thanks for the hard work, research, and for sharing your test results.

I will be hitting the dyno, so will post my results and my AFR, etc. - as soon as the Summer fades and temps come down a bit.

Glad to hear it went smooth. I'd have the stock 158s serviced and then just hold on to them for future use.

Also, you can remove the injectors without removing the fuel rail(s) (at the back) from the fuel regulator or the stabilizer. Just remove the 2 screws from the rail and then remove the screws that hold the fuel regulator bracket to the intake runner, this saves lots of time. I can get all 6 injectors out and new ones in in about 15-20 minutes tops.

[jlex]

Are the 364 injectors from Howard's place used/reconditioned? Haven't seen much on his web site hitting on that issue... thanks.

jlex.

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by jlex

Are the 364 injectors from Howard's place used/reconditioned? Haven't seen much on his web site hitting on that issue... thanks.

jlex.

I think Howard sells new and reconditioned ones. But most are reconditioned. I've been running a reconditioned set of 6 I bought from him for about 4 months now and they work great.

I had him also service my stock 158s and those are on the shelf.

[cgarr]

I am using the 364 injectors and did send my old ones to Howard for service, I got next day service, that was quick!

[JimNap]

Hello everyone, I hope that no one minds me resurrecting an older thread here.

I've got an 85.2 944 that uses the same 158 injectors as you Carrera folks.

I discovered that some of my injectors had cracked pintle caps when removing the intake to perform a swap on the ISV/Idle Control Valve. The 4 injectors were sent for service and I heard back from the servicing place that 2 had leaking pintle cap seals (or soemthing similar) and could not be serviced.

I found this thread while looking for more info on the 158's, and I had heard that 159's could also be used. But I now see the info on the 364's which is of course very interesting.

Does anyone have any idea why the 364's wouldnt also work on a 2.5L in a late model 944? Physically they do look identical and apparently from the testing that was done they also test identical - except for the pintle cap. Besides being metal, the caps appear longer and would extend further into the intake plenum. I would suspect this only helps maintain the spray pattern by getting the spray further away from the plenum side walls.

Any theories on 944 usage of the 364 injector?