Suspension, $3000 later: Issues

[johnnywishbone]

doesn't it seem proper form that if FASSIS' "mechanic" doesn't make this right, the shop
name should be made public, to protect poor people such as myself from being
victimized? just a thought,,,,thx, jp

[Fassi]

@Javadog

Good point. I think the bearings were checked and are fine.

@Grady

Thanks very much for the advice and moral support; I appreciate it.

@diy83sc

I've performed that test on several different roads. The pull is always to the right, no matter where you are on the roadway.

@jeromyrwks.

May be true; it's harder to turn to the left. The mechanic is not the first to advise against corner balancing a street car. I think a couple guys on here have argued the same thing.

@Soukus

Can you please describe the homebrewed process for installation of Chuck's control arm bushings? That might be helpful.

@Amjf088

That's exactly why I decided to have this done in the first place. I'm glad someone can relate.
I don't know, I assume the mounts would be among the first things that were checked.

@johnnywishbone

Thanks, brother. At this point We don't know for sure that anyone has been victimized, right? It could just be an alignment/corner balance issue and not a major installation blunder.

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally Posted by speeder

Another thing, and it's the best general advice I could ever give: always use specialists in life wherever possible. Suspension work requires a suspension specialist. A Porsche suspension specialist. Using specialists for anything, (not just cars), is usually cheaper and a lot smarter in the end.

Generally good advice. You can pay any shop to go to school on your car, results will range from good-to-disasterous. Most will bill extra hours to cover their learning curve.

Or you can go to a specialist who's been there, done that, has the right tools and knows exactly how to do it. The job gets done right, takes fewer hours, and probably costs you less money.



Hard to imagine the shop advised against doing a corner balance in an effort to help you spend your money wisely, then turned around and charged you $1800 to install bushings. Ask the shop to show you their set of computer scales. Most shops don't even have them, and explains the recomendation not to corner balance.

This is not an inexpensive job, but we do it for a lot less than this. More importantly, it would be done right.

Find a specialist.

[Fassi]

Chuck, just to be clear, is it your view that the custom tools are indispensable to proper installation, irrespective of experience or expertise?

Please take a look at my response to your earlier note, if you haven't already.

Thanks.

[Chuck Moreland]

Giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe he made his own tools that are similar to what we provide.

But no way in hell are those bushings going to be installed properly without the tools.

[Fassi]

Thanks, Chuck. Your support here has been great.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by Fassi

May be true; it's harder to turn to the left. The mechanic is not the first to advise against corner balancing a street car. I think a couple guys on here have argued the same thing.

If the suspension has not been taken apart and the car was reasonably balanced before, an alignment does not need a corner balance. (Though it's never a bad idea on a TB 911). If the ride height has been changed and absolutely if the T-bars have been removed, it's essential. As in, not optional.

Depending on the context of that advice, it's either apples/oranges or someone doesn't know what they're talking about. That happens here sometimes.

[Canada Kev]

Originally Posted by Fassi

...this particular guy has a good reputation and works on a lot of Porsches locally.

Shortly after I got my car, I took it to a local independent with a 'good reputation' and with plenty of Porsche experience. Other than an out of province inspection, I had them do an oil change and valve adjustment. This 'experienced' shop overfilled my oil by two and a half quarts. After I talked to the service manager about this and the noisy valves, he offered to do the next oil change free, clean my engine and replace my air filter. He also said they do the valves "loose" to avoid the possibility of burnt valves. Huh?

I don't use them any more. I think you need to look elsewhere for mechanical expertise.

[SC-targa]

Originally Posted by speeder

If the suspension has not been taken apart and the car was reasonably balanced before, an alignment does not need a corner balance. (Though it's never a bad idea on a TB 911). If the ride height has been changed and absolutely if the T-bars have been removed, it's essential. As in, not optional.

I believe the Fassi stated "all" of the bushings were replaced. That would involve removing all of the suspension bits from the car, so all four torsion bars would need to be indexed.

Bottom line, the car needs to be corner balanced to drive properly and safely.

Regards,

Jerry Kroeger

[bkreigsr]

Having two different tire manufacturers on each end of the car could be part of your problem.
Freshening up the suspension might have accentuated the different spring rates or sidewall flex inherent to the Avons and the Conti's.
At 80/82,000 miles, its probably time for new shoes - ones that match, then start chasing any remaining handling problems.
my .02
Bill K

[dgmark]

I will throw my hat in on this one. I have areas that have already been discussed that I would address. Assuming that the alignment specs are equal on both sides and the thrust angle is correct. things that can cause your pull are.

1. Brake pull, sticking brake caliper, usually will not pull when brakes are applied.
2. Binding steering rack.
3. Tires, Easy to diagnose by swapping front tires from one side to another.
4. Tight ball joint.

I am assuming that that the pull was not there before the work was done so I am not to concerd about the above items. Do not get to excited about alignment specs, as long as they are equal on both sides the car should not pull.

My guess would be a corner balance issue and or control arm bushing indexing. Your mechanic is incorrect regarding corner balance. Also If the bushing were indexed incorrectly it can cause binding of the control arm that can dramatically effect corner balance. The car will never be right with this problem and the bushings will fail prematurely because of stress on the bushings. In the rested state without the struts attached the lower control arms should be close to the natural ride hight.

All the above items are easy to diagnose, and they each need to be eliminated one at a time to correct the problum.

[Fassi]

Your assumption is correct, dgmark. There were no pulling or steering problems whatsoever. The car had been aligned at 82K miles by Glenn's Alignment & Brake Service out of Costa Mesa, CA and everything was perfect.

@brreigsr

That makes sense.

[cary]

Cornerbalance.............just had Rothsport do an alignment and cornerbalance. Its low as you can just about go and still be driveable. Set for Hoosiers and AX. Zero toe. I still need 50# on the right front. But we didn't change any parts, except rear t-bars.
At 60 MPH I can take my hands off the wheel and pour coffee from a thermos.

[Fassi]

After hearing from the Chuck and the rest of the board, I asked the mechanic to address the following points:

"With respect, I'm not pleased with the outcome of the suspension work
or your responsiveness to the issues I raised on October 12th and
before. I have contacted the manufacturer of the bushings and sought
the consensus of Porsche community with respect to the problems I've
encountered, and this has raised some concerns:

1. $1750 for installation of bushings (ride height settings and
alignment inclusive) is "generous" at best, especially in the absence
of a proper corner balancing (preferably on electronic scales). It
seems odd that you'd advise against a corner balancing (presumably to
save me money), then turn around and charge me $1750 for the job. I
agreed to your terms, fair enough; but surely for nearly $1800 it
should be done correctly the first time.

2. The manufacturer continues to insist that the bushings could not
have been properly installed without its proprietary tools, as I
told you at the outset. He calls this a "red flag," and his exact
words were that "no way in hell" could the bushings have been
installed without the tools. This is a recognized suspension expert
with a stellar reputation in the marketplace and among enthusiasts.
All his shop does is suspensions. If compromises were made to get
those bushings on, it may account (at least in part) for the
alignment/steering problems I've since encountered. I was willing to
pay you a premium for this work in light of the cost of the parts
themselves. I could have bought very cheap, inferior rubber bushings
that could be installed without special tools; there is a reason I
spent $225 for the Elephant kit. I trusted you not to cut any corners
with any of the parts I supplied. I'd appreciate it if you would
detail exactly how you managed to do it.

3. The suggestion that the bushings need to settle does not appear
credible. According to the manufacturer (who has installed the same
bushings countless times), and everyone else I could find who has had
this work done, the bushings either go in correctly or they don't. In
his view and based on his experience, if they had been installed
properly, there would be no need to have them "settle." Therefore, the
set in period as an explanation for the steering/alignment issues is
not compelling. In fact, it only suggests that the bushings were not
installed correctly.

4. Yesterday, you were unprepared to respond--at least not in a
serious way--to an issue I first raised in early October. This is
despite my call to the shop, my detailed email, and the written
promise that it would be addressed. Why? In fact, I myself had to
bring it up again, and you only reluctantly agreed to test drive the
car. I think your exact words were "it seems fine to me." It doesn't
seem fine to me. At all. I've been unusually patient (it's been
several weeks), but I cannot continue to drive the car in this
condition. You seemed to downplay the obvious pull to the right
despite the safety and wear implications. If the car is switching
lanes when I let go of the steering wheel, there is obviously a major
suspension or alignment issue. It's not a question of tweaking the
settings or corner height a bit. I gave you a car with a documented,
well-sorted alignment. It's not unreasonable to expect a specialist to
get it right, or at a minimum to take my concerns seriously when
mistakes are made. Incidentally, you never gave me a printout of the
alignment settings.

5. It takes more force to turn the wheel to the left than to the
right; and the left front wheel is wobbly at full lock. It is more
pronounced on a flat surface. This is not a "preexisting condition,"
and is most likely related to the pull to the right. I wouldn't
expect something like that to be dismissed casually because it doesn't
bother you personally. This problem feeds into a thesis that something
has gone wrong w/ the installation of the bushings, at least at the
front of the suspension.

6. No serious effort has been made to diagnose the severity of the
rear suspension. If the front of the 911 is sprung more tightly that
the rear, it's unusual for the rear to be harsh where the front is
not, isn't it? It's not inconceivable that you missed something when
you inspected the suspension. I owned another 911 for five years and
have driven several turbos, some with stiffer suspension components; I
am familiar with the ride characteristics of torsion bar suspensions.
There is something wrong.

..."


This morning I received the following response, which I will post verbatim as a matter of full disclosure. In fairness, I did forget to mention the ball joints that he installed. Everything else I noted in my initial post. Here he points out that he got the car through emissions, but seems to forget that I paid $220 in emissions related labor (over two hours of labor, not one), and $50 to pop in the heater control rod, for a total labor cost of $2054. The "nick-nack" is the removal of a tiny screw in the sunroof tab that I had been unable to pry loose. Otherwise, he left the interior of the car covered in grease and a tiny ding in the hood. More importantly, the specific points I raised are not addressed.

"How dare you!..Compare apples to apples......Dont forget to tell
them that I installed these items::Both front and rear A-arm
bushings(Original style) They are installed properly and I did not say
I did not use a special method or my own tools,both ball joints,remove
and clean torsion bars,paint bars and lube,remove upper strut top
mount,cut out original bushings and install new bushings,with upper
strut bar,replace all sway bar bushings front and rear,remove rear
spring blades,cut off original bushings,install new bushings,clean
spring blades and re-center eccentrics,remove and install trailing arm
to torque tube bushings,set ride height,remove upper strut bar to
remove factory sealant to upper struts(yes,I did this when I did the
upper strut bushing install)reinstall strut bar,four wheel
alignment......Also, dont forget to tell them that you supplied all
the parts and you chose the set up of factory rubber bushings up front
and stiffer than stock bushings for the rear trailing arm.....Oh, yea
dont forget to tell them about spending time to get your car through
emissions,and only charging an hour for that whilst spending much more
time than that.I actually went over to the emissions shop to adjust it
to pass,then reset it so the Car would run.. Oh, yea dont forget to
tell them about the heat control repair and the other little nick nack
things I did.."

Is it me, or does this shop not seem especially interested in working things out? It's very disappointing, actually; he seemed like a stand up guy.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by cary

Cornerbalance.............just had Rothsport do an alignment and cornerbalance. Its low as you can just about go and still be driveable. Set for Hoosiers and AX. Zero toe. I still need 50# on the right front. But we didn't change any parts, except rear t-bars.
At 60 MPH I can take my hands off the wheel and pour coffee from a thermos.

Yeah... Right... after all what would Jeff know

He probabbly could lower it some more, after all, are you scraping on the ground yet?

Will I see you this Saturday for awards?

[turn9]

Fassi,

You are banging your head against a brick wall. By now your "experienced" mechanic should have offered to fix the problem without further delay. Something is fishy.

At this point your working relationship with that shop is toast. Take your car elsewhere. Have them document, with photos if possible, their findings. Seek redress through your cc company or other avenues as you see fit.

This guy is jerking you around, without concern for your safety.

T9

[HarryD]

Fassi,

This guy has taken your money and failed to provide the services promised. How does he account for the pull? Even if I get a $29.95 alignment at "Fast Eddies", if the car pulls afterwards, they take it back and make it right.

The parts you supplied may make the ride harsher than he would like, but has nothing to do witht he pull you are experiencing.

... Both front and rear A-arm bushings(Original style) They are installed properly and I did not say I did not use a special method or my own tools

Ok, then how did he install them?

... four wheel alignment......

Where is the printout of as found/as left results? Do they meet factory specs? Are they set to non-fasctory specs that have some basis in reality?

Bottom Line

If you charged the work let him know you HAVE filed a dispute with the CC company and you would like to get is resolved to everybody's benefit.

[Fassi]

@Turn and Harry

You guys are right. I may have to seek redress at this point.

For what it's worth, this was my response this morning:

"I mentioned the cost of the parts, where they came from, the change to
the trailing arm bushings, the replacement of all the bushings, the
setting of the ride height, and the alignment. I forgot to include the
ball joints, but I will pass that along along w/ your response
verbatim. As I said, I appreciate your help in getting the car through
emissions, but I did pay an additional $220 in emissions-related labor
(over 2 hours, not an hour), and $50 to pop in the rod (not
unreasonable). It wasn't free. Labor for the job amounted to $2054.
Please understand that I myself did not comment on the fairness of the
cost. These observations were made by others. In any case, at this
point the cost has no bearing on whether or not the job was done
properly.

I think your self-righteousness is little misplaced here, XXXXXX.
You're acting like everything is in order. It's not. I've raised
legitimate questions about the installation of the suspension parts in
light of substantive problems w/ the steering/alignment and feedback
from the manufacturer and others. There is nothing inappropriate about
my note. Apart from getting upset that the cost of the work was
questioned, you haven't responded to any of these in detail. If you
have your own method for installing the bushings, please tell me what
it is (as I asked in my last email). I've related exactly what the
manufacturer told me in his own words. In short, the control arm
bushings cannot be installed without the tool, and is no set in period
regardless. The bushings are either installed correctly or they are
not. If they are, then surely you have an explanation/plan for each of
the six points.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Thanks,

[GaryR]

I'm confused, what is this special tool (or tools) for installing polybronze bushings?

[Fassi]

The custom tool is used to install the OEM style rubber bushings made by Elephant Racing. See:

Elephant Racing Control Arm Rubber Bushing Installation video