Suspension, $3000 later: Issues

[javadog]

Originally Posted by magnumpi

It's funny, but why is it all the postings I've read on this forum concerning member cars "pulling" always seem to have the car "pulling to the right?" Is there something in the dynamics of the 911 suspension or weight distribution that causes that to be the more likely direction of pulling?

PS. I have the exact same problem, mine pulls to the right too, even after a four wheel alignment.

On most roads, the road surface slopes to the right to facilitate drainage. This will cause a car to pull to the right. In the good old days of large American sleds, savvy alignment shops would dial in a little uneven caster to compensate for this.

JR

[mike the snake]

Are the tires directional? If not, have you tried swapping the fronts. I had a car with a failing tire, and it was all I could do to hold the car straight. When that tire finally died and I switched a new tire on the car went arrow straight.

I can see the car possibly pulling if the fronts were switched and they were unevenly worn somehow.

[magnumpi]

Originally Posted by javadog

On most roads, the road surface slopes to the right to facilitate drainage. This will cause a car to pull to the right. In the good old days of large American sleds, savvy alignment shops would dial in a little uneven caster to compensate for this.

JR

Interesting point. I guess our UK and Aussie owners may complain of pulling to the left.

I was thinking of doing a front tire swap to see if that helps straighten her out.

[Fassi]

Originally Posted by burgermeister

Fassi, I cannot imagine how bushings could be installed incorrectly in a way that renders the car functional and causes it to pull. The rubber is either where it belongs or it isn't. The preload may be off on the front LCA if the orientation is incorrect - this can be done with or without the proper tools - but that has nothing to do with the car pulling, and can be readily compensated for during ride height adjustment.

Pulling is, in my experience, tire pressure, front or rear camber different side-to-side, dragging brakes, or rear toe.

Your 'wobbly wheel' syndrome is something my car sometimes used to exhibit in parking lots as well. There was nothing wrong with mine - I always wrote it off as an ackermann (or rather lack thereof) issue with sticky tires ... since I installed 993 brake cooling scoops, I can't go to full lock anymore, so it ceased being a problem

Edit: I did have an incorrectly centered steering rack from the PO. Someone put the steering wheel back on a spline off, and compensated with adjusting the tie rods, so I may have had 1 wheel turning more than it should. I have since corrected this. But I don't know if it fixed the issue (see above).

The car I gave him had a perfect alignment and no wobbling or pulling whatever. Please recall that it was the mechanic himself who explained the these issues in terms of "unsettled" bushings. His suggestion was to drive the car several hundred miles ("really get on it") to let them settle, rather than immediately redo the alignment, which he called "fine."

[Fassi]

@Javadog

It's not a subtle pull; if you let go of the steering wheel in the left lane, a few seconds later you've switched lanes and are heading for the curb at an angle. I never had that problem before; now I'm constantly correcting to the left. Steering is also heavier to that side; around a left corner the wheel seems to fight to the right.

@Mike

Thanks, Mike. I considered that possibility, but there is no uneven tire wear and tire pressures are normal.

@Magnumpi

Does your car drift gradually to the right, or is it more of a sharp, lane change type movement?

[Fassi]

@berettafan

That's right, you did offer the tools; sorry about that. Did you use the tools for your own installation? Don't misunderstand me, if the guy has another way to properly install the bushings, great; I'm not a cheerleader for the Elephant tools. My problem is that he hasn't told me how he did it and seems oddly defensive about it. I'm going to have his worked looked over by another shop and we'll see. I hope it's not more than an alignment issue, but his attitude is not very confidence inspiring.

@Jaskas

If he had similar tools, he could have shown them to me when I asked him about it at the shop, yeah?

[berettafan]

no doubt you need to just get the car somewhere else with an instruction to check the work and get the alignment right.

[450knotOffice]

At this point, you have six pages of people confirming your suspicion that things are definitely not right. If I were you, I'd make an appointment with one of the specialists in your area mentioned earlier in this thread. After spending as much as you have, another $300 to $400 will be well worth it to have a perfectly aligned and weight balanced car. I rebuilt my suspension about four years ago and had the car corner balanced and aligned (and again just about six months ago at TRE), and it drives perfectly - no pull in either direction.

[Fassi]

That's the plan, Scott, thank you.

Thanks, guys, for all the great advice and moral support.

[magnumpi]

Originally Posted by Fassi

@Mike

Thanks, Mike. I considered that possibility, but there is no uneven tire wear and tire pressures are normal.

@Magnumpi

Does your car drift gradually to the right, or is it more of a sharp, lane change type movement?

It's just as you describe...kind of a sharp movement to the left if I let go of the wheel...I have to hold the steering wheel to keep her on a straight track to negate the pull. If I let go of the steering wheel, I'm over in the next lane (or on the shoulder) in a matter of seconds. Not safe at all.

My tires are newer, less than a few thousand miles, and show no signs of uneven wear either. I'm not expecting any miracles when I swap the Left and Right fronts, but I'll give it a shot anyways. I should mention that I'm a newer owner of the car unfortunately without much history as to the suspension upkeep. My mechanic said things all looked original but were within tolerance when he safetied the car. All I've done is get turbo tie rods put on, and the four wheel alignment. The car was also pulling before the new tie rods and alignment.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Fassi

@Javadog

It's not a subtle pull; if you let go of the steering wheel in the left lane, a few seconds later you've switched lanes and are heading for the curb at an angle. I never had that problem before; now I'm constantly correcting to the left. Steering is also heavier to that side; around a left corner the wheel seems to fight to the right.

Uneven caster settings can make a car pull to one side. The greater the difference, the harder the pull. Uneven camber can also do this, to a smaller degree. If your car is pulling to the right, I'd expect to see less caster on that side.

Positive caster also is what gives you a self-centering tendency for the steering. The more positive caster that you have, the more self-centering effect that you get and the more the steering effort will load up in a turn.

JR

[javadog]

Originally Posted by magnumpi

All I've done is get turbo tie rods put on, and the four wheel alignment. The car was also pulling before the new tie rods and alignment.

Did the caster get set, or just the camber and toe? Got any numbers?

JR

[magnumpi]

Originally Posted by javadog

Did the caster get set, or just the camber and toe? Got any numbers?

JR

No, the front castor did not get set during my alignment. I chipped away all the black sealer around the shocks in the luggage compartment before going, but the technician said the camber/castor was "just fine", they just adjusted the front toe (new tie rods just put in) and rear castor/camber/toe. Unfortunately, they weren't a Porsche shop so I am planning on trying to locate a local Porsche specialist for a re-alignment.

[javadog]

In that case,

I'll bet all they adjusted was the front toe. Obviously, the camber or caster isn't correct, given the symptoms you have, and I'll bet you lunch they have no idea how to use the eccentrics in the rear to adjust anything. By the way, there is no rear caster to be set.

Jeff

[shnewberry]

I am a relative newbie in the Porsche world, but I had a similar pulling experience in the BMW I rebuilt. After chasing it around under the car, I tried swapping tires on the front. Turns out there was some slip of the belt in one of the tires which caused it to pull the other way.
Good luck.

[berettafan]

Any updates on this?

[Fassi]

Mechanic supposedly re-installed the front bushings and realigned. Total toe was set at .17 and the car was test driven. Total toe shifted to .49 (out of spec) due to "settling." Car was realigned. Stance is perfect and the suspension is quiet.

The situation is somewhat improved, but car still drifts to the right, and the left wheel still wobbles at full left lock (although a bit less noticeably). Mechanic thinks it's a dragging right caliper. He suggested new tires and a caliper rebuild.

[javadog]

Ready for a new mechanic yet?

JR

[berettafan]

Ck brake pads if in a while. Should be clear difference between l/r.

[brads911sc]

WOW... All the time from experts like Grady and Chuck... 120 posts... and your still with the same mechanic and still talking about settling bushings.. and still probably havent had a proper alignment and corner balance... they need to be done together...

I can tell you I did a complete Elephant install myself... parts alone were 3k... and when I had the alignment done, the CB was off... way off... it drives straight as an arrow... it is a street car... porsche designed the car to get a CB... if they didnt want you to get one.. the factory wouldnt recommend it...

why do you bother to bring up your issue on pelican if you just ignore all the experts... i am no expert... but you should probably get a new mechanic and do what people like Grady tell you to do... sounds to me like you have moved into brakes... your mechanic is enjoying taking your money im sure...

If the car didnt do the drifting and wobbling before your install... then its not tires and brakes... its directly related to what was done...

Originally Posted by Fassi

Mechanic supposedly re-installed the front bushings and realigned. Total toe was set at .17 and the car was test driven. Total toe shifted to .49 (out of spec) due to "settling." Car was realigned. Stance is perfect and the suspension is quiet.

The situation is somewhat improved, but car still drifts to the right, and the left wheel still wobbles at full left lock (although a bit less noticeably). Mechanic thinks it's a dragging right caliper. He suggested new tires and a caliper rebuild.