Suspension, $3000 later: Issues

[Jgordon]

"The alignment rack was tied up at that particular time". Which time? The time he first alligned the car? If so, no wonder it has issues.

As for piss off, can't blame him. Or you. I've parted ways with a few mechanics. No law says you have to like everyone you meet. But for the money we pay on the cars, and the hobby/passion they represent to us, it sure is more fun when you like and respect the people working on them for you.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by Fassi

So, the guy says..."The alignment rack was tied
up at that particular time."

Does this mean he did an alignment without using the alignment rack? Or, what?

A few things come to mind.

This guy most likely installed the bushings without the correct method being used.
He then tells you that a corner balance is not required, which isn't good practice.
He may have not performed the alignment that was included.
He refuses to answer your questions and has what I'd call poor customer service.
I don't have warm, fuzzy feelings that anything he did was done professionally.

I wouldn't take your car back there. I'd consider holding up the payment until it is determined that he in fact did the work that is listed on the repair order and did it correctly, in the sense that nothing that he did (apart from the alignment) will need to be redone. In particular, I'd want some assurance that the bushings were not damaged by the installation.

I'd also discuss it with him in person and once you have an idea where you stand, I'd pay him a mutally agreeable amount for what he did.

Good luck with this one.
JR

[500_19B]

Hmmm, I don't know... reading everything here, I am surprised by this "mechanics" unwillingness to address what seems to be some serious safety issues. I would be tempted to write back:

"Unfortunately I have lost confidence in your ability to properly complete the work on my car, as you seem unable even to detect or acknowledge what I feel are very obvious handling deficiencies. As such, I have decided to take my car elsewhere for a more competent diagonosis.

Thank you"

[ben parrish]

Good advice to have things checked immediately...like tomorrow.
Verify that work was done correctly and move on.
If the work was done incorrectly or the bushings are damaged, dispute the charge with your CC.
If all was done correctly, chalk it up to a learning experience and then find a mechanic that is capable of communicating with you.
You current guy may be very good at some things but his responses indicate that he is either covering up some questionable work or simply not customer oriented. Either way, there is no excuse for continuing a relationship with him.

good luck.

Ben

[dgmark]

John Bean is a old name that was bought by Snap On Equipment a few years back. The Visuliner is a 3D imaging alignment system that uses cameras and wheel targets to gather data. Very quick setup time and easy to use software.

[berettafan]

Plenty of smart folks have said a cb isn't necessarily $$ well spent on a street car.

I don't see this particular point as being a fault.

[berettafan]

if you find the bushings were installed correctly (its not rocket science and I disagree w/ the notion that only the factory tool can get the job done tho it is certainly helpful) then you would be wrong to do a chargeback (imo) of the whole amt.

[Fassi]

With respect, berettafan, I'm inclined to defer to Chuck on the question of the installation tools (you may not be familiar w/ these particular bushings); but obviously if it turns out that the bushings were somehow installed correctly, I'll have no reason or desire to do a chargeback for that part of it.

As for the corner balancing, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's not optional for a job like this. Perhaps it wouldn't be necessary under different circumstances.

[Jaskas]

I do think that the bushings can by installed without the Elephant special tools. The tools seem to be quite simple. Your workshop could have some similar kind of tools allready. As said its not rocket sience.

But i suggest to get the car to a digital alignment company and ask them also inspect all the bushing at the same time. Im 99% sure that this is a alignment issue!

Check also your brakes! Are they ok?

[Fassi]

@Jaskas

Are you familiar w/ the Elephant Racing rubber bushings and how they differ from the competing product? I do hope it's only an alignment issue, but at this point I think 99% is optimistic.

[burgermeister]

Fassi, I cannot imagine how bushings could be installed incorrectly in a way that renders the car functional and causes it to pull. The rubber is either where it belongs or it isn't. The preload may be off on the front LCA if the orientation is incorrect - this can be done with or without the proper tools - but that has nothing to do with the car pulling, and can be readily compensated for during ride height adjustment.

Pulling is, in my experience, tire pressure, front or rear camber different side-to-side, dragging brakes, or rear toe.

Your 'wobbly wheel' syndrome is something my car sometimes used to exhibit in parking lots as well. There was nothing wrong with mine - I always wrote it off as an ackermann (or rather lack thereof) issue with sticky tires ... since I installed 993 brake cooling scoops, I can't go to full lock anymore, so it ceased being a problem

Edit: I did have an incorrectly centered steering rack from the PO. Someone put the steering wheel back on a spline off, and compensated with adjusting the tie rods, so I may have had 1 wheel turning more than it should. I have since corrected this. But I don't know if it fixed the issue (see above).

[500_19B]

I agree that it seems unlikely that the pulling issue is due to the bushings.

However, it does take one's confidence away when the mechanic continues to avoid disclosing how he put the bushings on. Chuck's tools are not hard to figure out and it is entirely conceivable that your mechanic may have had something similar on hand. I think Chuck insists on supplying the tool to avoid the headaches of people damaging the bushings while trying to install with any number of home-brewed methods - and I agree with Chuck's approach for that reason.

The part that I find mistifying is why your mechanic wouldn't use the tools since they were provided at no cost to him?

All that aside, it sounds like you have enough experience in other 911s to know that your's is no longer right, and if a car is pulling noticeably, then is just seems crazy that the mechanic does not treat that seriously.

At the end of the day, there is a good chance that most of the work he did is OK, but something is wrong – alignment or whatever – and you need someone with the expertise and willingness to sort it out. Hopefully it will prove to not be too expensive.

[bkreigsr]

fwiw, the rear metal mount works fine for a pusher on the front mount, and the grease cap from the front hub (74-89) works for the rear. no need for special tools.

Bill K

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by Fassi

With respect, berettafan, I'm inclined to defer to Chuck on the question of the installation tools (you may not be familiar w/ these particular bushings); but obviously if it turns out that the bushings were somehow installed correctly, I'll have no reason or desire to do a chargeback for that part of it.

As for the corner balancing, the overwhelming consensus seems to be that it's not optional for a job like this. Perhaps it wouldn't be necessary under different circumstances.

I put the very same front bushings on my own car (remember i offered to send the tools to you if you need them). Found the tools to be very helpful but NASA engineering it is not. In my view i paid the premium (roughly 3 - 4x's what other bushings cost) for what i believe is the best bushing design, not for the tools.

i'm not a suspension engineer so i won't claim to be right on the corner balance issue however i'm not sure a poll of those in the know would be a landslide 'you must get a c/b' result.

[bkreigsr]

a car that has not been corner balanced (99% of the cars on the road?) should still track correctly/true/straight given it is properly aligned.
Bill K

[speeder]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

a car that has not been corner balanced (99% of the cars on the road?) should still track correctly/true/straight given it is properly aligned.
Bill K

2 things: 99% of the cars on the road have never had their suspension completely removed and replaced and over 99% of them are not torsion bar 911s. If you do not understand how these cars are sprung and how his could be unbalanced, you could easily think that corner-balancing is an unnecessary waste of time.

[450knotOffice]

Corner balancing in these cars is VITAL. Yes, it most certainly will pull to one side if the corner balance is off. Porsche corner balanced every one of their old torsion bar 911's at the factory as part of the suspension build process. If it weren't important, they would not have wasted their time. By the way, any car with adjustable ride height on all four corners needs a corner balance.

[911pcars]

Here's one opinion on the need for corner balancing. Not necessary. You don't need a set of race scales under each wheel to confirm there's equal weight on each front or each rear wheel.

The tripod method was mentioned in an earlier post. It's low tech and it's in the factory repair manual. Essentially, the process transforms a four-legged stool into one with 3 legs, thus eliminating one corner of the vehicle from affecting the other end. If the ride height is the same on the tested end (front or rear and with sway bar drop link disconnected), the corner balance is close enough (validated by others who have performed this).

Lacking weight scales, the repair shop could have performed this simple procedure, then, having confirmed and adjusted accordingly, moved on to adjust the alignment. Granted, adjusting the rear ride height can be a trial and error process that takes time. However, if the tripod method isn't used and weight scales aren't available to confirm the car is "balanced", any alignment attempts or subsequent height adjustments to "compensate" will prove fruitless.

In that he stated the alignment rack was "unavailable" I find it difficult to imagine they otherwise aligned the car using strings or other low-buck but equally accurate method.

If the car pulls to one side, I don't see any relationship if the stiffness of an individual corner is different. If all 4 tires point in the correct direction, the vehicle should still roll straight. Ride harshness is another issue.

MHO,
Sherwood

[magnumpi]

It's funny, but why is it all the postings I've read on this forum concerning member cars "pulling" always seem to have the car "pulling to the right?" Is there something in the dynamics of the 911 suspension or weight distribution that causes that to be the more likely direction of pulling?

PS. I have the exact same problem, mine pulls to the right too, even after a four wheel alignment.

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

If all 4 tires point in the correct direction, the vehicle should still roll straight. Ride harshness is another issue.
MHO,
Sherwood

mine too, regardless of the hardware that suspend the car
Bill K