Porsche apocalypse – Ruf’s 911 V8

[rusnak]

Ruf Gmbh is the new Porsche

[Ouzo12]

Car and Driver: Article Detail

this is a good article

[juicersr]

Originally Posted by rusnak

Ruf Gmbh is the new Porsche

+++1

THANK GOD Ruf exists. I think he is actually the bastard child of Ferry

RGT 8 explained here by THE MAN himself

[idar211]

Great Video !
This is definitely some ground breaking stuff. Very cool and no doubt very well done. BUT... Im still very doubtfully that he developed an engine from scratch by himself. The R&D cost alone would bankrupt his small company.
Although i wouldn't BE MAD if Porsche threw a V8 into the 911, but i still think the flat 6 still has a lot of years left.
Im also not MAD that his chick can talk the car up like he did. Sh'e pretty down.

[LSX Fan]

I'm so glad to see someone like Alois Ruf think outside the box and do some real development on the 911.

[Geronimo '74]

Originally Posted by ZAMIRZ

Actually, you're completely wrong. There is no Cayenne connection.

Again I stand corrected...

Kudos to RUF for devellopping a "completely" new engine. (still having a hard time believing it, but that doesn't make it untrue, I guess)

So anyone who wants a Porsche WITHOUT a Porsche engine now has the choice between a Porschevvy conversion or a RUF V8....

[Wil Ferch]

nine17 says..... " Doesn't the dynamic ability of the 911 as a true rear-engine car depend to a large extent on the low center-of-gravity of the flat-6 engine configuration?..."

In my heart, I would say..."yes".

As a practical matter, even if the science tells me it's slightly higher CG...I would say it won't matter much. Look at what Porsche did with the 930 / 934 / 935....especially all the variants of the 935. All manner of mechanical clap-trap, intercoolers, turbos, etc...way up and back.

As the late, great Bob Akin said of the 935's ...and how unwieldy they can be..."You can't make a racecar out of a pig.....but you can make an *awfully fast* pig !!! ".

[911Freak]

In the video Alois stated the weight of the V8 was significantly lighter then the Porsche H6. He didn't specify which H6 (3.8 or?) but clearly this was one of the engineering goals in designing this V8.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of a V8 in the 911 platform, however I like this design, the attention to detail in gear driving all the accessories, locating them as low as possible in the engine are just a few examples of the engineering prowess Alois and his team posses. I say let them run with it! One would believe Porsche pays attention to RUF's products

Who isn't looking forward to hearing that flat crank V8 scream to 8,500 rpms!

Now if he had made this a mid-engine design it would be hard to disagree with this package at any level, no?

[RWebb]

The low center-of-gravity of the flat-6 engine configuration, is not a huge improvement over a V-type engine design - the really heavy stuff (the crank, the int. shaft, the oil pump) is still low in the frame.

The heads and valve train are higher, and the induction system may be higher. These items weigh a lot less tho.

The advantages of the V-type are a much stronger block (case); ease of manf. and repair, and sealing (since you don't need to split it to do work or put it together).

The imbalances in a V-8 create an interesting harmonic structure ("rumble") and are fairly well controlled, altho the imbalances are greater than in a flat design.

(A V-6 is a horribly imbalanced design and I hate hate hate them -- the V-6 does go well with cup-holders however.)

If you REALLY want a low CG, then you need to use a distributed power system, such as GM showcased in their flat platform fuel cell electric vehicle concept. The entire powertrain is in a few inches of thickness that forms the chassis. You don't get that mechanical noise from an IC engine of course, but you would get tons of very clean torque, and a low CG. There are pics of the concept on the Internet somewhere...

[shnewberry]

I want to watch the technician try to adjust the valves on #4 and #8.

[PacificP]

how many of us have driven a 911 with a v8, or a shifter kart?
i have driven both, and i think the cars rear feels planted (less tail wag) with a little more weight on the back and if you have you air con down low with your alt. all your extra wieght is below the heads. feels like a shifter kart! i love that feeling!
if you have driven a porsche with a v8 tell us about it.

[lin7310948]

i have a 71 rs lookalike with 585 chp all aluminum dart 434 cubic inch sbc roller motor with mass flo efi. i do not do track events but it is a really solid car on the street. after corner balancing the weight distibution was slightly more evenly balanced front and rear. the car weighs 2250 pounds give or take a gallon or two of gasoline. it has all the usualy brake and suspension modification with lindsey 17 inch wheels, big bars, big brakes, mattre aluminum roll cage which does help to stiffen things up a bit. with the 930 transaxle and aluminum trailing arms the car cruises at 70 mph and 2250 rpm and gets much better mileage then my 930. i prefer this car over my 78 930 and the 930 is seldom driven. both cars are setup similarly as to suspension, brakes, bars, etc. the 930 is efi and to get the 425 rwhp it was much more costly. so i am partial to a v8 porsche because i can get really high horsepower per dollar invested in the motor and it does not require a specialty shop and mechanic to maintain. not for the purists but it is for me!

[DB_NC_95C2]

Reinhard Konneker worked with Hans Mezger at Porsche, and Alan Brown came to RUF from McLaren. I am stoked that RUF has produced this car, and Porsche if they do not follow suit will have their a$$es handed to them on the race track by the likes of the new 458 by Michelotto. They (Porsche) have taken the normally aspirated flat 6 as far as it can go from a competition standpoint, unless GT rules are changed to allow the twin-turbo engine, last year will be the last ALMS GT2 title for Weissach with a flat-6. Don't get me wrong, I am a RABID Porsche fan, and I'm far more interested in what can be done in racing than what they sell for rich streetcar people, I'll never be able to afford a 997 or beyond, so I don't care what Porsche builds for the street.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by RWebb

....
The imbalances in a V-8 create an interesting harmonic structure ("rumble") and are fairly well controlled, altho the imbalances are greater than in a flat design.

(A V-6 is a horribly imbalanced design and I hate hate hate them -- the V-6 does go well with cup-holders however.)

...

A US V8 w/ a 90* V angle and a 90* or X-plane crank creates it's characteristic rumble from it's need to sequentially fire 2 cylinders from 1 bank and then 2 from the other. These creates a stumble in the sequence of exhaust sounds that many find pleasing. There is a similar stumble(though for a different reason) in HD and Ducati exhaust notes

The Ruf V8, like Ferrari V8s, and most champ car V8s while using a 90* V angle, use a 180* or flat crankshaft. These engines like a stock Porsche flat 6 always fire alternate banks so do not have the stumble to their rumble. They also have different exhaust needs related to their firing orders.

[exc911ence]

The performance potential is staggering! However, my problem is that no matter how sweet the V8 sounds, it won't sound "right" for a 911. I know, I need to drag myself out of the 60's, but a Ferrari wail emitting from the back of a 911 just doesn't sit well with me.

[scoe911]

Originally Posted by twobone

Very bad mojo. I think what makes the 911 so interesting is the fact that it is on a never ending path is improvement to an original formula.

Agreed, Porsche made the 911 and the 911 made Porsche...it will always have a flat six. This means more to the company than many think and that legacy will continue unless they decide to call the car something else.

[911st]

As Bill notes, the firing order with the flat plane crank is different which effects the exhaust.

Its biggest advantage is it puts the exhaust events at an even 180 degrees on each side of the motor. This make's it easier to build a tuned exhaust that improves scavenging and ultimate performance.

The exhaust tuning opportunities on even firing per side are probably up there with variable valve timing, direct injection, variable length intakes and such.

The challenge being the vibrations or smoothness that comes with it as it is more like two 4 cylinder motors running together but just out of sink.

There can be a lot of emotion that comes with differentiation of drive train style or configuration.

Think if the identity tied to Porsche air cooled flat 6, a Ferreri V12, and Harly's V twin.

The rumble and vibration imprint of a flat plane V8 may end up to be a major marketing advantage in its own right.

I to am a solid flat 6 AIR COOLED fan. The new stuff dose little for me except maybe the GT2 & 3's.

However, if the motor is lighter and makes more power I do not care what its configuration it will improve handling. Especially if it takes weight off the back.

If worried about center of gravity, just put a smaller fly wheel on it and mound it a half an inch lower or make the sunroof panel out of carbon fiber to compensate if needed.


There is a lot of insest with RUF, Bosch, Porsche, BW and a lot of the other suppliers that all seem to work together over the years.

I suspect the new V8 is a supplier driven or joint venture product that will untimitaly end up in the Porsche sports car. RUF might just be better positioned to bring new technology's to the market first. This also may help create an appetite for Porsche's introductions. Who did not think they really wanted a twin turbo Porsche after RUF came out with the Yellow Bird?.

[Flieger]

Originally Posted by DB_NC_95C2

Reinhard Konneker worked with Hans Mezger at Porsche, and Alan Brown came to RUF from McLaren. I am stoked that RUF has produced this car, and Porsche if they do not follow suit will have their a$$es handed to them on the race track by the likes of the new 458 by Michelotto. They (Porsche) have taken the normally aspirated flat 6 as far as it can go from a competition standpoint, unless GT rules are changed to allow the twin-turbo engine, last year will be the last ALMS GT2 title for Weissach with a flat-6. Don't get me wrong, I am a RABID Porsche fan, and I'm far more interested in what can be done in racing than what they sell for rich streetcar people, I'll never be able to afford a 997 or beyond, so I don't care what Porsche builds for the street.

Porsche only won the Driver's Championship. BMW won the Manufacturer's and Team Championships- albeit by 1 point over Porsche. Had Ferrari won the Petit LeMans by not running out of fuel, they would have won.

The BMW and Ferrari both use 90 degree firing V8s. That said, I still like the flat 6 better.

[Packy]

This motor is an engineering marvel. This is a seriously bad ass motor and from what I read it is very under-tuned. I'm guessing we will see these putting out some serious numbers way higher than what they put out from the RuF factory.

Originally Posted by sl951

What's the benefits of a Flat crank V8?

The pistons act as the counter weights, therefore there is less rotational mass (no crank counter weights) which allow the engine to rev higher. I'm very impressed.

Originally Posted by 304065

I assume that Ruf considered and rejected a flat-eight due to packaging limitations.

Originally Posted by herman maire

I think this is cool.... I would prefer a "flat 8" though.

The fact that it will have a "FLAT CRANK" V8 engine, will make it VERY special motor and with a 8500rpm redline it should sound incredible. I cant wait to hear this thing.

From what I understand, flat eights are not as balanced as flat 6s and V8s. I know a flat 6 is more balanced than a V8. Is this true?

Also, many V8s are lighter than flat 6s because they don't have individual cylinders. Siamesed bored v8s are light and strong. Considering even the LS1 is lighter than a flat 6, this could be a very good thing. Also take into consideration that a new GT3 motor only lasts 100k miles, a detuned v8 putting out the same numbers I would expect to last longer.

Don't hate just because it is new and not what you have. This motor doesn't make your flat six and less of a great motor.

[Packy]

Originally Posted by Flieger

Porsche only won the Driver's Championship. BMW won the Manufacturer's and Team Championships- albeit by 1 point over Porsche. Had Ferrari won the Petit LeMans by not running out of fuel, they would have won.

The BMW and Ferrari both use 90 degree firing V8s. That said, I still like the flat 6 better.

A little off topic, I know, but there were also some issues and thoughts about if it was fair that BMW was allowed to use larger restrictor plates (more air flow) on their intakes because they complained and petitioned about how it wasn't fair that they had a higher drag coefficient at the beginning of the season. 1 point difference? It must be tough to write the rules and regulations for these races. But whatever, the past is the past.