Why should a repaint decrease a car's value?

[Z-man]

Originally posted by Matt Smith
I have painted classic cars professionally for a few years while on a working holiday in London. Plus lots of my own cars beforehand.
We did some pretty cool stuff: Aston DB6's, 356, E Types, Austin Healeys, MG T's etc. I loved doing this work, and loved doing it right.
You do need to strip them colmpletely in my opinion. I have never painted a car that wasn't bare metalled, even when the customer insisted we do a "quick blow over" (no such thing, ever!).

My point is that while these cars look awesome, they seem to loose a bit of their magic, especially if they had a couple of scars on them. The scars told a story, and with these sorts of sports cars the story inevitably was an interesting one.

Maybe a bit of it was I now knew who had painted the car: me. Nothing magical about that (unless I have been deluding myself).

Now I really treasure original paint. Problem is, not many people do. In fact I have yet to meet anyone who appreciates the cool swagger of my sun baked suede silver 911 quite as I do. I get nagged to repaint it (which I could easily do, and probably will) all the time. But there's just something about climbing into a car that you know has lived mysteriously somewhere else. How did that scratch get there? Why is there a little scrape on the fender? I dunno. That's half the fun to me I guess.

Matt: Spoken like a true purist! Bravo!
-Zoltan.

PS: Before my time, the front driver side of my car took a hit, and was repainted. It is a pretty decent fix, but you can see a slight shade difference. So, even though I feel a repaint lowers the value of a car, it didn't stop me from buying my baby!

[IceBlueSC]

This issue has only really become pressing to me since my accident:

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53844

When I spoke to the other party's insurance company, I made perfectly clear that I was going to get the collision and paint work done at a shop that had experience with Porsches. I settled on taking the car to Autobahn Autobody and Phil has been a great resource and help.

They are a factory approved shop for Rolls-Royce and Bentley and when I spoke to Phil last week he took me on a tour of their facility. There were a couple of Rolls, Bentleys, Ferraris, Jags, and Porsches, all in various states of repair. Their finished products look first class in terms of fit and finish. I am just negotiating how much more it will cost if I get the entire car resprayed in a proper manner.

For me, I think that a quality respray will add to the value of a car as long as it is not being judge for originality. I put it in the same group of "value upgrades."

[curtisaa]

I wiil concur about the quality of paint Phil can put out. He's done my cars for years. However, before you take it there make you do a walk thru so you can account for ALL your parts. Things seem to "get lost" and then "walla" you'll see Phil at Pomona selling Porsche parts. Take pics or video of your car, inside and out, before you leave it.

As far as quality, they probably have the best painters (trainned)in SoCal.

Good luck...BTW, when you see Phil, tell him, "Curt says not to sell my parts at Pomona".....he will give a surprised look, then smile!!!

Curt

[CamB]

Matt,

Kinda reminds me of the Rolling Stones (I think!) - I see a red Porsche and I want it painted black...

No wait, I thought all Porsche's came in any colour you liked as long as its black and some got repainted?

Besides, you know I want to drizzle signal orange all over the '69

Back on-topic, I would take a concours restored car over a concours unrestored "patina" car any day. Mind you, I think this might be because I would feel bad driving the unrestored car, "ruining it".

Cam

[Matt Smith]

The Patina debate is quite topical at the moment.
While I am in no way suggesting our 911's are in the true exotica league, it is interesting to note that by FAR the highest classic car prices lately have been paid to unrestored timewarp machines, such as that bird**** stained Birdcage Maserati or the 'dungeon' Ferrari (can't remember exact details- sitting at wk right now).
That these cars and many more have so exceeded the value of their shiney counterpoint surely adds weight to the patina principle. We are not alone.

Yes, I like concourse cars too. How couldn't you? But I would far prefer to say, drive an E type jag that had been nursed from new, with original leather, wood and paint than a recent 100 point resto job. They just smell so nice- providing the mould hasn't taken hold Why drive an old car if it's new?
Difficult to explain.

Did anyone see that sharkskin matt black Three fifty six Speedster with revamped mechanicals in an Excellence last year? The geezer just refused to repaint it, but it was concourse throughout: the brakes, motor and wiring etc. That car was cruelly cool. I could imagine Steve McQueen using the hood paint to rub the stubble off his sideburns.

Cam: when that sony generation 26 year old chassis of yours starts to 'patina' a little perhaps you will begin to dig the concept of unrestored more than over-bored?

[IceBlueSC]

Originally posted by curtisaa
Good luck...BTW, when you see Phil, tell him, "Curt says not to sell my parts at Pomona".....he will give a surprised look, then smile!!!

Curt

Thanks for the head's up Curt. I'll mention that to Phil next time I see him!

[CamB]

Matt, I do agree, but to a point.

Thing is, I can't have the patina both my 911s are little hussies. The Jag does, however have interior patina (exterior repainted) and I DO love it.

I remember the article on that speedster - it is truely cool, and there are plenty of well restored speedsters out there for those that like it.

I think I am talking about the difference between being petrified that the next stone chip will ruin the "old" paint, vs the "drive it" feeling.

Actually, I have no idea what I am on about. I like 'em all. I fully appreciate the time warp aspect of a concours car; the virtually new feeling of a restoration of a car that will be driven (my preference, I think); the patina of age in a well cared for, low mileage car; the hard worn miles of a well used car; and, in my case with the '69, the rough and ready, good from 10' repaint and interior (at least it doesn't matter if it gets dirty ).

I think the question is whether a concours car is worth more than an "original" car? I think the reason the "original" cars are worth more is simple - they aren't making them any more and you can't reverse time - they are simply rarer than restored cars. You can make a restored car, but can't make 30 years of lovin'. I appreciate that, but the ability for me to buy such a car is so far out of my reach (eg Paul D's 72S) that it becomes an irrelevance.

So I end up a notch below - cars which could do with a repaint (or heaven forbid, rust repair then repaint - see '75 below ). Matt's car is a perfect example (no rust though). His interior really is very very nice. Beautiful brightwork and the body is straight. But the paint is, ummm, textured. So what to do? 'Cause Matt likes it, in the perverse way described above. I guess on that basis, the time and money involved aren't worth the incremental enjoyment - if any?

[Norm Faustino]

I guess that is the best part about buying a 911 that has had at least two color changes and from not very caring owners.
Best I can tell, my car started life as a grand prix white 1978 SC beauty and was changed to a nauseating metallic fuSChia and finally to a piss poor black with air bubbles in the hood and top which then got scratched to bare metal on its left rear quarter by a dog who lived in the carport with it for the last two years, (hence the name "SCratchy").
I now have a canvas on which to paint a beautiful new black skin and I plan on doing all of the prep work myself and have a good reputable gun shoot a high quality paint on it for me. I am not the least bit SCared to undertake this daunting task because I wil have plenty of nostalgia (and german bier) to reminiSCe about, not to mention the memories my son and I will make together while bringing my fantastic little machine back to life. sc

[pwd72s]

"You can make a restored car, but can't make 30 years of lovin'. I appreciate that, but the ability for me to buy such a car is so far out of my reach (eg Paul D's 72S) that it becomes an irrelevance."

Cam? Just think of all the money I've "saved" (where is that money now?) by not having my car repainted!
Hey, the car isn't for sale...really, So a value put on it by "experts" who write in magazines? Doesn't really matter...unless (heaven forbid) I have to fight an insurance adjuster. There, I think, is the real rub.

[autobonrun]

To clarify my point, what I am wrestling with is whether to repaint a car I plan to keep and know inside and out. Owning a Porsche makes you somewhat of a perfectionist but I'm not anal about it and I'm not looking for a concourse contestant. I still plan to drive it like hell (over 202k miles now and it had 22k when I bought it in '84)

From 10' away it looks great. It has no rust. Add a bra and it looks even better.

Except I KNOW that the front bumper needs a repaint from a piece of truck retread. The touch-up job shows if the bra is off. There are some door dings that should come out. The rear bumper is fading along the top portion and near the exhaust. There is a scratch on the rear deck lid from 10 years ago when a pool ladder fell over in the garage. That still irks me like it was yesterday every time I look at it. It has stone chips along the front valance. If you get up close and look, these things become obvious. I think it's knowing that these items exist that bug me somewhat, and a total repaint would carry me another 18 years.

Maybe I'll straddle the fence and do a partial on the rear deck lid, front and rear bumper, mirrors, and front valance; then use the dent removal service for the door dings. That way the main sections of the car would still be original.

Thanks for the input, I think this will be my compromise position.

[nostatic]

Maybe we need to take a lesson from guitar manufacturers. The Fender Custom Shop has made a ton of money selling "relic" guitars. As background, it is generally acknowledged that older Fender electric guitars (1965 and older...before the CBS buyout of the company) are superior "magical" instruments, and have become prized by players and collectors. Most of these guitars are fairly nicked and scratched nowadays, with finish fade, checking, etc. The Custom shop got the bright idea of, "hey, let's make a brand new guitar then beat it up to make it look old." Sound stupid? They have sold a ton of them, and now other makers are copying the idea. In fact the custom shop has expanded to now sell NOS (new old stock, brand new guitars to original specs), closet classics (looks like it was stuffed in a closet for 35 years), and relics (in varying states of beating). They have also built custom chambers with smoke, acid, etc for rusting parts, aging wood, and have special tools for gouging and scratching. I've heard stories of them whipping guitar bodies with chains and other nonsense (kinky).

So maybe we need to find someone to repaint the p-cars, then add back a few dings, scratches, etc to get the "vibe" back.

[pwd72s]

Okay...here's my value quandry... say my car gets totaled or stolen. My current value stated carrier is insuring my car for roughly $10,000 under the highest legit offer I've had for the car, the highest he will go, regardless of premium paid. Do I go to him, and say I don't want mere money? I want him to go out there & find a car like mine...a 48,000 mile original 1972 911S, Irish green, full tan leather interior, limited slip, tinted glass, etc. ? Don't think he'd agree to that. BUT, he sure would have his lawyers bring B.A.'s latest EXCELLENCE article on early 911 values into any courtroom. In this case? If you were Judge Judy?
Hmmmmm. Okay, apologies for wandering off topic...but new or old paint, some objects simply aren't replacable. So, how do you determine a value? I hope one columnist's opinion isn't the sole answer. Bruce's values listed on an "excellent" 2.4 911S? I'd be willing to place that money in escrow, payable to Bruce just as soon as he finds such a car. I'm not saying such a car doesn't exist...it may. But a lot of people have been looking for such a car for a long time. And it's people looking for insured compensation after a loss who really suffer from such "expert" opinions.... Guess you've figured it out...Bruce Anderson's opinions on car values are not the word of Allah, not as far as my opinon goes.

[CamB]

Originally posted by pwd72s
Cam? Just think of all the money I've "saved" (where is that money now?) by not having my car repainted!
Hey, the car isn't for sale...really, So a value put on it by "experts" who write in magazines? Doesn't really matter...unless (heaven forbid) I have to fight an insurance adjuster. There, I think, is the real rub.

Paul, I think this is the point (and see your other post on replacement issues). I would love to own your car or equivalent (and was mentally factoring a multiple of BAs price) but given that price, impossibility of replacement, and that I would thus be too scared to drive it except on special occasions (I guess that is one way to keep the mileage down!), I am not a natural owner for such a car.

Or maybe I am, but not yet - I am still young and want to drive a lot (the '69 is my daily driver ). It would need to be a, ahem, third Porsche, for me. One for daily, one for fast, and one for love of the marque.

[curtisaa]

Paul.. I'm on the same page. If, and that's a BIG "if", som'em were to happen to your "diamond in 'da ruff", and your insurance CO. called, "you know who", you would need a battalion of "US" to refute him. .....sad isn't it. But.....there have been several logical opinions about the repaint, and many very well stated. I suppose in the final analysis, it's "up to the buyer". Our opining really is trivial.

[Don Wohlfarth]

Originally posted by pwd72s
Okay...here's my value quandry... say my car gets totaled or stolen. My current value stated carrier is insuring my car for roughly $10,000 under the highest legit offer I've had for the car, the highest he will go, regardless of premium paid. Do I go to him, and say I don't want mere money.

You've gone as far as you can go. You have a value stated policy aka agreed value.
I've dealt with enough insurance companies to find out that the only thing they offer is "mere money".
Either sell your car or continue driving it and assume the risk. Don't be beating yourself up to the point that you can't sleep at night.

[pwd72s]

Don, you're right. But I do choose when & where the car is driven darned carefully. Wal Mart shopping in the car is NOT on it's to do list. That's why there are Dee-troit iron.