Does this 911 have a future?

[Roscoe417]

Thanks for the interest everyone. I left a message for Aaron and I'll see what happens there.

As for the brake lines and fuel lines, there were all replaced in '87 or '88, but I will definitely have those looked at.

The goal for me here is to really to get it into drivable condition, not show car quality. Hopefully this can keep the costs down.

When I talk to Aaron, what should I ask him regarding this type of repair? Should I be on the lookout for any other non-obvious damage from the tube failure? Any advice from someone who has repaired a failed torsion tube would be really useful.

Also, still looking for shop recommendations in Milwaukee too - that's where the car is, so transport there would be more reasonable.

I'll post more pictures tonight. Thanks everyone.

Eric

[Grady Clay]

Eric,

IF the only serious damage and impediment to driving is the damaged rear torsion bar tube
(and other components damaged in the 180 spin and consequent to the tube failure),
then get it ‘fixed’ sufficient to drive the car.
This won’t be ‘earth shattering’ expense.
This won’t be correctly or completely ‘fixed’ either.
(The torsion bar tube rusted from inside due to condensation in the ‘sealed’ cavity.
You are seeing only the rust on the outside. It is probably more serious inside the double panels.)
The spin only stressed the weakend tube to failure.

You will need to spend some time (and money) getting everything else working and safe to drive.

Now you have (at least) a ‘running 911’.
Now assess what you want to do.



The only way the 911 will ever be a ‘great’ car again, will be to ‘start from scratch’.
This is the expensive and time-consuming ‘body-off’ restoration and un-doing the ’88 ‘repair’
... and un-doing whatever you must do to ‘fix’ the current situation.
The good news is that the result will be better than Porsche built it new and it will never rust as it did.

Now is the time to do this.
There are the restoration parts available and the knowledge to ‘make it right’.
There are even some NOS available.
A few decades from now, this probably will not be possible (for mortals to afford).


It appears as a ‘normal’ ’67 911 without ‘S’ trim.
Some were ordered with ‘S’ sway bars and Koni shocks (and a few, Porsche added the vented ‘S’ brakes).
I see alloy lugnuts so it may have (or had) the '67 optional '911S' 4½x15 Fuchs (or later updates).
This may be the ‘S’ suspension you reference.


Please post more pictures of everything.
We can help you better assess the situation.


The biggest decision will revolve around your (and family’s) attachment to your dad’s very special (life-long) 911.
A 911 like this may have VERY special meaning to a grandchild or great-grandchild someday.
Please don’t lose it.
(I wish I had my dad’s Factory delivery ’66 912 sunroof coupe and the ’67 SW Targa I replaced it with.)


If you don’t restore it now, preserve it in a very low humidity environment and secure all the to-be-unavailable restoration parts.
If you get it drivable and expose it to the current (mag chloride) environment, it will quickly disintegrate.

I hope this helps.

Best,
Grady

[RWebb]

- find another car for parts or go to a junkyard

- drop the entire motor & trans as a unit; check thru both and rebuild as needed while working on the body; do the CV joints then too & check or rebuild the wheel bearings

- cut out the entire torsion tube assembly from a good car (or buy a tube) and replace it -- people have done this and posted pics here

Good Luck - you have a pretty rare car, besides the sentimental value

[chiroracer]

She's Gorgeous!!! Do what it takes to make it a fun driver and the love will grow.It looks like focused area of rust rather than a cancerous form. S

[andyt11]

Originally Posted by Roscoe417

The goal for me here is to really to get it into drivable condition, not show car quality. Hopefully this can keep the costs down.

Excellent goal. $50k ground up restorations are not for everybody, and it's easy for people to sit back and tell you that's what you should do. Of course that's the correct answer, but it's not their money and time. Getting it back to being a fun weekend driver might be a more realistic goal.

Originally Posted by Roscoe417

When I talk to Aaron, what should I ask him regarding this type of repair?

Not sure really. Email him some photos and ask him to call you for a chat. He is rather hard to get on the phone, there is only him and an employee in the shop so he is often unable to answer the phone when it rings. He always calls back eventually though.

The reasons I suggested him are because he is close, you can go down there and chat to him in person, and because he may be able to guide you on how to proceed. Also, whilst he is intent on doing a quality job, he does understand that a lot of his customers at least have a budget and therefore have to prioritize what they are going to do themselves, what they are going to have done for them, and what they are going to put on the back burner for next year(s). He can probably advise there too.

[Roscoe417]

I am curious, Grady's message and others I have seen all assume that the repair in 1987 or 88 was done poorly and would need to be re-done.

Now, obviously the torsion tube failed - so that may indicate that something was missed, but I don't believe any defect was suspected.

But, the drivers side front fender and door replacement always appeared to be done well. (At least this novice never noticed anything odd, like uneven surfaces, uneven door gaps, lines not parallel, paint mismatch, over spray, etc... What has changed in how body work is done today that would require that this work be undone? I think my dad would have sprung for original sheet metal if it was available, or if not, the best salvage or reproduction he could find. He was kinda picky at that stage in his life (he is a bit more pragmatic now).

This is a serious question, so I can know what to look for. I will be where the car is soon, so I can check for specific things then.

Eric

[Winter]

More pics, as many as you can post.

You will get a lot of encouragement, but you will want to listen closely to the actual advice on what to repair, replace, etc. There are some lengthy threads here on how to awake engines that have been sleeping for a long time, search and read them. On the surface, this appears to be a project that you should get on the road and then continue to make improvements bit by bit as you have the time and money. I like the color and the provenance of the vehicle can't really be beat. . .

Good luck and keep asking questions. The forum here (and the used part classified section) will become your best friends.

[andyt11]

Originally Posted by Roscoe417

I am curious, Grady's message and others I have seen all assume that the repair in 1987 or 88 was done poorly and would need to be re-done.

Now, obviously the torsion tube failed - so that may indicate that something was missed, but I don't believe any defect was suspected.

But, the drivers side front fender and door replacement always appeared to be done well. (At least this novice never noticed anything odd, like uneven surfaces, uneven door gaps, lines not parallel, paint mismatch, over spray, etc... What has changed in how body work is done today that would require that this work be undone? I think my dad would have sprung for original sheet metal if it was available, or if not, the best salvage or reproduction he could find. He was kinda picky at that stage in his life (he is a bit more pragmatic now).

This is a serious question, so I can know what to look for. I will be where the car is soon, so I can check for specific things then.

Eric

Its a fair question. I'm not sure why people assume it was a bad repair. Unless something is obviously wrong I'd forget about it. There are more important things on this car to work on, such as getting it running, servicing the brakes and fuel system and repairing the torsion tube.

[aston@ultrasw.c]

The rust has killed it.

You could easily spend $50k to create a $15k car.

Makes no sense to me.

[dhagood]

i don't remember anybody saying it was a bad repair, and i'm too lazy to go back and look. what i remember is that somebody (grady clay?) commented that what would have been done in 1988 is not what would be done now. to me all this comment is saying is that technology has advanced and repair done now would be superior to what was done then.

also, a repair done to a 20 year old car is different from what must be done to a 43 year old car. a 43 year old rather rare porsche 911 is worthy of preservation in a way a 20 year old car is not.

times change, techniques change, and the rarity factor has changed.

also, please note that the car was not galvanized when it was manufactured, and there rust is an issue. not might be, not could be, but is an issue. the only question is how much rust, not whether or not there is rust present.

the car has been rusting quietly for decades, and it is where you can't see it that the rust is the worst. there are any number of amazing restoration projects that are heavily documented with photographs, and in most of them you see little visible signs of rust. then an interior cavity is opened for inspection, where rust abounds and must be dealt with.

hopefully your car will have minimal rust, but whether or not you decide to do anything to the car, i think it is in your best interest to understand exactly what will be required to restore the car to whatever level your wishes and your budget will allow.

[j911brick]

I vote to save it. SWB cars are rare and becoming very desirable. It doesn't look that bad.

[Flieger]

Take a look at this thread and tell me that your car cannot be saved.

Restoration of a RHD 2.2S.

[dhagood]

of course his car can be saved. the question is, can he afford to have the car saved?

[dafischer]

Originally Posted by aston@ultrasw.c

The rust has killed it.

You could easily spend $50k to create a $15k car.

Makes no sense to me.

Well, the jury's not in yet, and it wasn't your father's car. I don't think he plans for a concours restoration, and when's the last time you saw a running, driving 67 worth only $15k, especially a 1 owner car?

[Roscoe417]

Well I met with Aaron this afternoon. I tell you I really enjoyed seeing all the cars in his shop. We got under a 70s era car on a lift and he pointed out some areas where I need to check for rust to help determine what we are in for.

When I took the pics I have, I went looking for rust and shot what I found. So either I missed it or it is not there. I'll get complete shots of the rocker panels and inside the wheel wells this week.

I am including some additional pics below.

Thanks dhagood for pointing out that a repair to a 20 year old car may not have been executed with the same care one would take on a 40 year old car simply because of the rarity. I did not think of it from that perspective, but I can see your (and Grady's) point now.

Anyway here are some of the pics I shared with Aaron.

From behind.


Engine left:


Engine right:


Front view. Spare parts and bits and pieces stored here. And look, the tool kit is present!


Gas heater (with mouse)


Passenger side hood strut


Drivers side hood strut. This side had the fender repaired after wreck in '75


Battery box. Not sure if repairs done here were result of collision or corrosion.


Interior. Yes, mold on the seats.


Gauges. That's 48,376 original miles.

[Roscoe417]

Here are a couple more shots of the torsion tube. You can see the typical rust situation on the floor pan.

[RWebb]

not too bad!

now get underneath and take some good pics of the front tie in for the A-arm on the body

also remove the pedal cluster and post a pic of that

[DaveHak]

My 2 cents..Get her running first. Bringing the engine to life will give you LOTS of motivation.

[Grady Clay]

Eric,

It is not that the '88 repair was necessarily poorly done, it is when something is repaired, the car is usually never disassembled more than necessary.
That tends to limit the scope of the repair to ‘just what is obviously necessary’.



The larger issue in all this is preservation.
Our early 911s were starting to rust in the Factory before they were assembled.
They are still rusting in our heated, air conditioned and de-humidified garages.
This will continue until there is not a drivable (or repairable) 911 left.

The long-term solution is to rebuild the chassis, attempting to apply all that has been learned by Porsche (and others – mostly restorers) in the intervening 44 years.
It will still not be a ‘new’ 911 due to the limitations of design, materials (steel) and process (galvanizing).
However, it can be a 1967 911 that won’t continue to rust into oblivion during several more lifetimes of enjoyed use.


The two largest issues (and both curable) are none of the interior spaces were coated with any protection – not even paint.
The other is Porsche ‘sealed’ many internal areas (torsion bar tube to name one) with no ventilation.
These tend to collect moisture and consequently rust from the inside out.
The solutions are to apply coatings and make vent provisions.
In some sense, this is ‘re-engineering’ the chassis while maintaining its originality.

Another issue is the presence of many places for road dirt and water to accumulate.
The ones we all know about are the junction of a reinforcing ‘hat’ on the chassis, just aft of the door striker plate panel.
This ‘Vee’ collects wet road debris and rusts through the striker plate panel.
If this is maintained clean & dry, there is minimal damage.
There are many more.
These are maintenance issues.



We are fortunate that a 911 is relatively easy to disassemble and reassemble.
It is the sheetmetal chassis that needs our attention.



I see some very important and fragile pieces that need protecting.
These are the original (apparently undamaged) foam tubes (green arrows) for hot air to the rear window and the engine ‘sound pad’ (yellow arrow).




These ‘soft parts’ are difficult to replace and again appear original.
The quandary is that you need to remove these (and many others) in order to get to repairing and preserving the chassis.
The solution is great care.
This is NOT a ‘rip into it’ process.
Great patents and planning is necessary.




The $50K and above numbers come into play when you pay ‘experts’ to do work that you can do as a ‘hobby’.
As almost everyone agrees, these are not economically viable as a commercial process – they are part of the enjoyment of “Porsche”.
I disagree that having carefully spent $50K on a 911 like this, the result is a $15K 911.
While the cost:value increase ratio may not be 1:1, it probably is not 3+:1.

My short-term recommendation still stands:
“ IF the only serious damage and impediment to driving is the damaged rear torsion bar tube
(and other components damaged in the 180 spin and consequent to the tube failure),
then get it ‘fixed’ sufficient to drive the car.
This won’t be ‘earth shattering’ expense.
This won’t be correctly or completely ‘fixed’ either.
(The torsion bar tube rusted from inside due to condensation in the ‘sealed’ cavity.
You are seeing only the rust on the outside. It is probably more serious inside the double panels.)
The spin only stressed the [weakened] tube to failure.

You will need to spend some time (and money) getting everything else working and safe to drive.

Now you have (at least) a ‘running 911’.
Now assess what you want to do.”




I agree, an extensive ‘chassis rebuild’ is not for everyone (and certainly not for the impatient).
You have the unique situation having a 1-owner, Factory delivered, relatively undamaged and unmolested 1967 911.
If you simply ‘repair’ it and drive it, it will be fine for a bit but will certainly succumb to rust.

I suppose my recommendations are biased based on my 44-year observations as to ‘how fast’ a 1967 911 can go from ‘serviceable’ to ‘junk-yard crusher fodder’.
Under adverse conditions some didn’t survive two years from new (and they didn’t use mag chloride then).

You are the current caretaker of a very special car.
I would like to see it be enjoyed by your great-great-grandchildren and everyone in between.
In the end, it is your 911 and your decision.

Best,
Grady

[911FASCINATION]

Really a beautiful car-I wouldn't even consider not bringing her back! Spend a whole day carefully cleaning her up, you'll see you're motivation start to snowball. Following Grady's and others' expert advice, will take you every step of the way, and you'll have great satisfaction that you did everything you could yourself. Go for it man.