911 SC question

[Nico911]

Hello.

There's a 1981 911 european SC for sale in my region for a pretty good price, but with two broken head studs (common for these models I believe). The rest of the car seems very clean.

My questions : are broken head studs a big issues on SC ? How much could it cost me to fix it ? Would you guys repair it on a rush, can it wait a little ? Do you just replace the studs just like that or it requires other parts to be replaced ?

Thanks again !

Nico

[plumb4u2]

From threads I have seen most people will say just two broken studs is not a big concern and car can be drivin without worry

I assume that all other studs have been checked for proper torque?

[Nico911]

I'll ask... thanks !

[Nico911]

bump !

[timmy2]

Do a search in the engine rebuilding forum. Depending on the severety and location of the broken studs you can do enough damage running that way, extensive machining may be needed.
For cost, it depends on how much you can do yourself.
Drop the car off at a mechanic=$5,000
Drop the engine off at a mechanic=$4000
Buy all needed tools and do it yourself=$3500 and the value of the experience.
Have all tools and do it yourself=$1000 for parts if you don't get bitten by the "while you are in there" bug...

[SC-Alfa]

Just went through this with my 81sc. Short answer is it needs to be fixed, or you risk damaging the engine. To fix it the engine needs to come out, the heads are pulled, all the studs are replaced.

Of course while its apart any reputable mechanic will recommend a valve job and reseal. Also might as well replace the clutch disc plate and throw out.

You will also find other problems like worn cv boots, mounts, crumbling sound inslulation pads, worn hoses etc.

I feel as though I resisted 'while your in there' syndrome as much as possible and ended up spending $5000+

[Nico911]

Originally Posted by SC-Alfa

Just went through this with my 81sc. Short answer is it needs to be fixed, or you risk damaging the engine. To fix it the engine needs to come out, the heads are pulled, all the studs are replaced.

Of course while its apart any reputable mechanic will recommend a valve job and reseal. Also might as well replace the clutch disc plate and throw out.

You will also find other problems like worn cv boots, mounts, crumbling sound inslulation pads, worn hoses etc.

I feel as though I resisted 'while your in there' syndrome as much as possible and ended up spending $5000+

Thank you for that answer. I'm only wondering if there's any risk that it might be not repairable, for some reason...

[OsoMoore]

My experience from reading here is that you can't get as much value out of the car than you put into it by fixing it. If you buy the car for 8K and put 5K into rebuilding the engine, the resulting car is not worth 13K. There are great priced SCs out there with rebuilds and no broken headstuds. I'd suggest you keep looking.

[KNS]

Originally Posted by OsoMoore

My experience from reading here is that you can't get as much value out of the car than you put into it by fixing it. If you buy the car for 8K and put 5K into rebuilding the engine, the resulting car is not worth 13K. There are great priced SCs out there with rebuilds and no broken headstuds. I'd suggest you keep looking.

Unless... The car has everything you are looking for: color, interior, options, etc. If you just have to have the car and don't think another like it will come along (which becomes harder as the years go by), then buy it knowing that you may be upside down financially. If you are going to keep it "forever" then it may take the sting out of the large cash outlay.

[SCWDP911]

where are these awesome priced SC's - seems like th market has done an uptick again in recent months....

[timmy2]

where are these awesome priced SC's - seems like th market has done an uptick again in recent months....

No kidding... Almost everywhere they seem to have jumped up in price by $5k or more....

[OsoMoore]

Originally Posted by timmy2

No kidding... Almost everywhere they seem to have jumped up in price by $5k or more....

I looked for about 6 months, eventually landing my current car at a good price (first in the following list). High mileage, but rebuilt and solid. Here is my final choice list. This was from April 2012. These were from a mix of craigslist, porschatrader, and pelican boards.

Contacted
Year	Type	Price	Location
1979	Targa	12000	Raleigh, NC
1981	Targa	13000	Los Angelos, CA
1981	Targa	11900	Philadelphia, PA
1981	Targa	8500	Raleigh, NC
1980	Coupe	13000	Lexington Park, MD
1983	Cabriolet	12500	North Chicago
1979	Targa	9500	Minneapolis
			
Uncontacted	
1982	Targa	12500	Washington DC
1982	Targa	12900	Phoenix, AZ
1978	Targa	12500	Austin, TX
1980	Targa	14000	Dallas, TX
1982	Targa	14200	Atlanta, GA
1979	Coupe	12500	Fairport, NY
1978	Targa	11000	Middleton, MA
1980	Targa	11500	Los Gatos, CA
1983	Targa	13900	Overland Park, KA
1984	Targa	12500	LA, CA
1981	Targa	12950	Denver, CO

I can't guarentee they are still out there, of course. But they were there then. It took a lot of looking to find them.

[Josh D]

I would only like to add that the '81-'83 RoW SC's came with the very desireable 930/10 204 hp engine. These were the most powerful of the SC 3.0 and not easy to find. IMO, this does add to the value and desireability if you're up to the task of replacing the headstuds.

[SCadaddle]

As the owner of an 82 911SC (USA version) currently undergoing head stud replacement, and if I had the opportunity all over again to shop for an SC, this would be my approach:

1) Contact your insurance agent and get a firm quote on the required insurance. This I did, and since I'm in the near age 50 group with multiple cars it wasn't shall we say "unreasonable" for the required/desired coverage. If you are less than say 30 years old and this will be your only car.....watch out!

2) Replacing the head studs will require the engine to be torn down to at least the "short block" i.e. case and crankshaft.

a) Check the engine ID number to make sure it is indeed a ROW engine.
b) Perhaps others can confirm what should be there with a ROW engine should the ID indicate, search the 911 engine rebuilding forum and learn how to distinguish, by counting the cooling fins of the cylinders from underneath the car, whether or not the engine has the Mahle or KS pistons and cylinders. If they turn out to be the KS versions that can be a whole 'nother world of hurt; again search the rebuild forum for the 29 page thread on re-ringing KS pistons and cylinders. IF they turn out to be the Mahle version you might be ahead of the game for step c.
c) Get a competent 911 mechanic to perform a compression and leak down test as part of the PPI (Pre Purchase Inspection).

If you've made it this far, it's all about the final $$$$$ negotiations.

[SC-Alfa]

Originally Posted by Nico911

Thank you for that answer. I'm only wondering if there's any risk that it might be not repairable, for some reason...

I think you should take it to someone (solicit input on this forum on where to take it in your area) and have a complete pre-purchase inspection done. You might also ask for a quote on repairing the head studs, while its in for the PPI.

At the end of the day it will probably turn out to be repairable, but your decision should be based on the overall results of the PPI. What condition is the trans in? Suspension, brakes etc. This car is probably worth over $20,000 in absolutely original, well sorted out condition, with good paint $ interior.

Yea there are a lot of project cars out there for less (many in desperate of top end jobs), but I think you should base your decision on what the car could be worth if all its problems are solved. If at the end of the day it will cost more fix it then it will ever be worth move on. Good news is there are a lot of very nice SC cars out there, if that's what your after.

[Packet82]

Originally Posted by Nico911

Thank you for that answer. I'm only wondering if there's any risk that it might be not repairable, for some reason...

Everything is repairable given enough money and spare parts. The question is, do you want to? If it has broken head studs, you're going to need to tear the engine apart. As the others have said, $5k for a basic job and refreshing some bits while you're in there.

Get a PPI though. Tranny rebuilds are $3500. Clutches are $650 in parts. If EVERYTHING else is good on the car and the price is right, you might be able to come out on the other end without overpaying. If something else is wrong, you're going to be upside down on it. That's fine if this is the exact car you want (god knows I'm upside down on my car), but don't expect to be getting a deal.

Also, as someone else mentioned, insurance is cheap. Mine actually went down when I put the 911 on my insurance and I have full coverage.

[NoYouRelax]

I love this discussion, but as a new owner of an SC, I hear conflicting stories. It seems as if broken head studs are innevitable, yet most say this engine is bullet proof. $5000 in pending repairs should make any engine bullet proof. Either way I love the car and the way the engine just sings going down the road. Other than pulling valve covers, are there other tell tale signs for broken head studs? What percentage of 3.0's get broken head studs?

I wanted this car since before I could drive, and here I am 36 years later with a gaurds red targa. Its justified as my safe version of a motorcycle.....

[Packet82]

Originally Posted by NoYouRelax

I love this discussion, but as a new owner of an SC, I hear conflicting stories. It seems as if broken head studs are innevitable, yet most say this engine is bullet proof. $5000 in pending repairs should make any engine bullet proof. Either way I love the car and the way the engine just sings going down the road. Other than pulling valve covers, are there other tell tale signs for broken head studs? What percentage of 3.0's get broken head studs?

I wanted this car since before I could drive, and here I am 36 years later with a gaurds red targa. Its justified as my safe version of a motorcycle.....

They'll all eventually break. $5k is just for a top end rebuild without going crazy. A full rebuild and replacing everything back to stock is quite a bit more than that.

Yes, they have a reputation for reliability. However, they're all approaching 30+ years old. Maintenance is due on all of them. if you want to get one that's truly bulletproof, buy one that's had an engine rebuild and documented head stud replacement.

The only way to really tell if they have broken studs is to take off the valve covers. It'll be the lower set that breaks. Even if there aren't any broken studs, that's no guarantee that they won't break in the future.