Megasquirt success - VE and Ignition Tables

[K Sykes]

Have been on a long Megasquirt road. Finally have success and am real happy with my current tune. I started with Tony's Bitzracing kit, MS1 with fuel only and have upgraded to MS2 to get an idle valve and EDIS for spark. I also added 996 cams to the 3.0 stock engine. Thought folks could use the VE table and Spark for a reference. I think I need to open up the intake a bit. Need an improved plenum between the filter and the throttle body. Car gets a bit starved at 6k rpm.

I'll add some install details in a bit. Most of the EDIS upgrade was courtesy of the junkyard and I figured a few economy tricks on the way, as well as benefiting from many of the Pelicans that did this ahead of me.

VE Table



Ignition Table



Results on the Dyno

[911nut]

Your AFR is 11:1? If so you are leaving torque on the table.

[JJ 911SC]

Originally Posted by 911nut

Your AFR is 11:1? If so you are leaving torque on the table.

Every bar is 2, so he is around 12.4

[Arne2]

If I'm reading his graph correctly, it looks like 12.6:1 or so to me. Looks like 2 points per hash.

Edit - JJ is faster than I am...

[K Sykes]

The afr scale is pretty much unreadable on that graph. But we spent 2.5 hours optimizing it. Not sure of the exact WOT afr, but it's not 11. Mid twelves is about right I think

[fanaudical]

Thanks for passing that along. People that will work for hours to optimize/perfect something and then share info willingly is what make this such a great resource for the rest of us!

[timmy2]

Nice work.
More details on the install please. I have my EDIS parts and am interested in your idle valve install.
Thanks for sharing the tables.
Do you have your target AFR table as well?
Post up your entire journey from upgrading MS1 to MS2, with details of your EDIS and idle valve install.
I'm sure there are a few here that would like to see it.

[911nut]

Originally Posted by Arne2

If I'm reading his graph correctly, it looks like 12.6:1 or so to me. Looks like 2 points per hash.

I see it now.
Gotta stop speed reading

[K Sykes]

I need to take a few more pics to get the full install documented, but I have a few I can add.

EDIS coil pack mount - I scavenged this from a Taurus or Explorer, It was an EDIS coil pack mount that had a mount that bent down parallel to the coil. I cut it off and welded a piece of scrap steel with three holes that uses the two larger studs and nuts on the chain cover and the threaded boss in the middle of it. I think they were for the air pump on earlier SC's

I used Goingsuperfast.com's crank pulley, VR sensor Mount and Distributor hole plug. This mounted up easily with the motor out. Suspect it could be done with a partial drop with the muffler gone. The VR sensor came off of a ford junker, $2. Think it was an Escort.



I found a BMW TPS that worked well - picked one off of a 3 series in the junkyard for $5, worked great. Pelican has new ones for reasonable money, I'll get the part # in a later thread.

I was able to get an EDIS unit, Coil and plug wires off of junk Fords - An Explorer has the EDIS unit where it's easy to find. Coil packs are also easy. Plug wires can come from a Crown Vic that has EDIS. Think I have about $50 total in EDIS parts. Big think is shielding on the VR sensor wire and the TPS wiring. I used some Coax cable that had braided shielding to get the shielding - stripped the coax to get the shielding and grounded the shielding to the EDIS shielding lead. Don't ground the other ends. Pin 2 on the EDIS unit provided a good tach signal. I rewired the rear fuses to provide crank and run 12V to the EDIS and MS units. I also cleaned up the engine harness to a lot fewer wires and got rid of the 14 pin stock connection. I used a 12 pin connector Duestch connector, but am down to fewer. I'll post some pics and a clearer explanation in the AM.

[timmy2]

Great info. How/where did you mount the TPS? My '78 TB doesn't have a through rod shaft. Guess I could drill, tap and extend it. Or mount one at the lower pivot on the linkage where it is driven by the throttle rod.
Some more info on the stepper idle valve too!

[DUK]

Looks good.

The only thing I will add is the VR sensor is only good to about 6000 rpm. If you plan to turn the motor more you will want to upgrade it. A stock 3.2 bosch sensor works good.

[K Sykes]

Originally Posted by DUK

Looks good.

The only thing I will add is the VR sensor is only good to about 6000 rpm. If you plan to turn the motor more you will want to upgrade it. A stock 3.2 bosch sensor works good.

Thanks,

With a 36:1 wheel, you have a bit more rpm headroom. You can also put a 10k resistor inline with the sensor. There is some debate on max rpm the EDIS can handle. I've been to 6500 no problem, but I'd drive the coil direct from the MS unit in a full out race engine.

[K Sykes]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Great info. How/where did you mount the TPS? My '78 TB doesn't have a through rod shaft. Guess I could drill, tap and extend it. Or mount one at the lower pivot on the linkage where it is driven by the throttle rod.
Some more info on the stepper idle valve too!

I'll try and take some more pics and write up both the EDIS and idle valve later today.

[drl911]

subscribed.

[timmy2]

Originally Posted by drl911

subscribed.

+1 :d

[K Sykes]

Some install details - I have left a lot of wires long on purpose, so I can be sure they are right. Next step is a lot of clean-up and better organization of wires and such. Having said that. Here is the overview of the install. I started with fuel only, using the Tbitz kit. I chose the "clean look" that cuts down the air box and opens up the engine compartment quite a bit. I found a lot of difficulty tuning and realized it was a mechanical issue - shot exhaust valves and guides. While the engine was out, I added 996 cams and a crank wheel for EDIS.



EDIS wiring is a challenge, two things to focus on; 1. Shielding sensor wires - TPS, VR sensor and PIP/SAW back to the MS unit. and 2. Getting the firing order right. In a happy coincidence, if you follow the EDIS chart here, the wiring is 1 - 2 -3 right across.

EDIS Pinout with notes



Coil Detail



Did I mention the wiring is a mess? I adapted the fuse panel a bit, adding a 6 position fuse panel with a common 12v source. I used a relay to that has a switching source that is on both cranking and running and then used a heavier lead from the starter to energize the panel. I use that to drive all the various ignition, fuel and O2 sensor stuff. I gave up on the rear defroster and no need to drive a CDI box anymore.



I used a BMW TPS that I recovered from a junkyard. It is a direct fit onto the Throttle shaft and has the same footprint as the throttle switch that is stock on an '80 SC. I sacrificed the switch to get the mount and used some aluminum tubing as a stand off. It bolts on using the existing threaded holes.



The Idle valve uses a manifold that DIY Autotune sells, it is designed to mate to a Jeep Idle Valve - the part numbers are on the DIY site. You will need to add 4 wires to your DB37 connector - all documented on the MS Extra site. I went a bit overkill on the tubing, but it does draw a lot of vacuum when its closed and weak tubing will collapse before the valve totally shuts, defeating the purpose of programming and IAC. I mounted the manifold to one of the aluminum supports for the fuel rail, could have also put it on the fire wall. One end goes into the intake, after the filter. The other end goes into the CSV air intake. This provides air around the throttle plate to provide a higher idle during warm up and allows you to sell your AAV, which should cover the cost of the IAC and manifold.







I wish had done more to document things along the way. I learned a ton about how MS works and really like the mix of modern reliability, drivability and more power in a car with all the character of an 80 SC. If stock HP is measured at the flywheel, I am up about 25 HP over stock and have a path to maybe 20 - 25 more with a cleaner intake and SSI's. In the meantime, I can drive to the airport in the am and not annoy my neighbors as much and I hope to also get better mpg, as long as I can keep my foot out of the happy pedal...

[timmy2]

Great info.
Saw your post at the yahoo site Kevin. Did you use the MS2 update files posted there with the fuel pump logic reversed when you upgraded?

EDIT: Hi Kinsley, Sorry I called you Kevin. Had a brain fart....

[K Sykes]

Originally Posted by timmy2

Great info.
Saw your post at the yahoo site Kevin. Did you use the MS2 update files posted there with the fuel pump logic reversed when you upgraded?

No, I reversed the logic at the FP relay. Rewired two pins. There are some write-ups on this site.

[K Sykes]

Some more random thoughts from the last several years of getting my car to where it is now. Overall, there is a lot of info available, both here and in the MS community. I don't think I have an original thought on almost anything below, but a collection of lessons learned and bringing together a lot of good ideas from others.

Happy to answer any specific questions.

1. EFI will not overcome mechanical issues. I spent a lot of time chasing tunes that would run great for a little while, and then have issues. It turned out that my exhaust valves and valve guides were toast. The clue was my rearview mirrors – finding a large cloud of oil smoke on a highway downgrade. I chased a lot of wrong tunes trying to get that sorted out. Once I bit the bullet and rebuilt the top end, everything got better and stuck.
2. Grounds matter a lot. Take a voltmeter and compare what your computer is seeing as voltage, what the actual voltage is at the 12V source for the MS2 and what it is closest to the alternator. I had a 2 volt difference and a very inconsistent voltage during driving – this was causing all kinds of problems with O2 readings and other MS functions. I replaced the battery-to-body cable and the braided copper strap between the engine and the body. That settled the voltage down so that it barely moves while driving and made the computer and the voltmeter reading nearly alike. You can fine tune the setting in the software, but if it’s a dramatic difference, check your grounds first.
3. To ground the MS, more, thinner wires are better than a few thick ones. I re-did my harness to use a total of 6 wires between the DB37 connector and the engine ground, which acts as an inductor and helps reduce noise.
4. Buy Tunerstudio, vs using Megatune. Phil Tobin keeps adding functionality to TS and it just does so much more that Megatune.
5. If you aren’t confident in your skills in programming, wiring, circuit design and tuning, start with the Tbitz kit or at least just do fuel first. There are too many variables with fuel and ignition, to be able to problem solve both at the same time. Those problems can be your install, software settings, firmware and mechanical issues. Tony’s kit takes a bunch of those out as a starting point. He also provides a base tune that will let you start and run as well as software logic that allows the MS to emulate the fuel pump logic that Porsche uses. It’s opposite of basically ever other car manufacturer.
6. There are two worlds in the MS community – the B&G folks, who designed the original MS and have firmware, the manual and a forum that provides support. This is the firmware Tony uses and for your first install, it’s the path of least resistance if you include his base tune. You can get your car running, and play with and improve the tune on the B&G firmware. The other camp is the MSExtra folks. They have taken the firmware to a new level and I made that switch to add ignition. The downside of this move is that you loose the TBitz fuel pump logic and need to rewire your fuel pump relay to work the way that MS expects it to.
7. Going to ignition adds a new dimension to performance, driveabilty and complexity to your install. I chose to go the EDIS route because, the units are very available in junkyards, they are simple to add and wire to the MS2. The hardest part for me was getting the crankwheel and sensor fitted. The only reason that was hard for me was because I had never dropped my engine. The shot valves made that an easier decision and out came the engine. I used goingsuperfast.com ‘s pulley and trigger wheel. Be sure to let them know it’s for an EDIS install, so they index the missing tooth to the right spot. They also have a VR sensor holder and a plug to take care of your missing distributor. The VR sensor that fits is a Ford part, the part # is on their site. I was able to find one on a junk car and got it for like $2. The EDIS unit itself is on early 90’s 6 cylinder Fords. Explorer, Taurus and the like. I found it easies to find the units on the Explorer; it’s on the driver’s side front on inside of the engine compartment on the fenderwell. I never was able to find one in a Taurus. The coil packs are easy to find, or you can buy one new for ~$60 – 80. They also have a capacitor that is usually attached to the coil mount. Not a bad idea to grab that, as it can help reduce noise. The spark firing order is important to get right. The EDIS fires ACB order meaning if you wire it according to the pinouts, with the connector closest to you, the coil fires the left pair, then the right pair and finally the middle pair. This works out great for us as 1-6-2-4-3-5 equal 1-4, 6-3 and 2-5 going in pairs which on the coilpack is 123 going across the one row and 456 across the other. It’s wasted spark, so it doesn’t matter which wire is on which pair, but it’s easy to put them 1,4-2,5-3-6 so you know which wire goes to which plug. The only other thing that’s important for this is shielding. There are a lot of low voltage signals running from the VR sensor, TPS and the PIP and SAW signals. EDIS pin 7 is a shield ground. It’s important to only ground one end of the shield. It’s also important to keep the signal wires away from the spark plug wires and the coil. I also twisted the wires from the VR sensor to help cut down on interference. You can make a twisted pair by chucking the wires in an electric drill and winding them together. I used some microphone wire (pair shielded) for the pip/saw signal wire. It was pretty thin gauge, but seems to be working fine. DIYAutotune sells a good shielded pair wire by the foot as well.
8. Getting 12V. I ended up ditching the Stock SC 3 fuse block in favor of a 6 way, common hot, modern fuse block. I used a wire that is hot for start and run triggering a relay that uses a heavier gauge wire direct from the starter terminal that is direct to the battery to power the 12v common on the fuse block – I have the injectors, 02 sensor heat, MS CPU, Innovate LC1 and the coilpack all with their own fused power from this panel. I have backdated heat, which gets rid of the need for the power to the fan and I gave up on rear window defrost, so I have no need for any of the legacy circuits, except to signal the relay to turn on.

[Lapkritis]

Originally Posted by K Sykes

.[*]If you aren’t confident in your skills in programming, wiring, circuit design and tuning, start with the Tbitz kit or at least just do fuel first. There are too many variables with fuel and ignition, to be able to problem solve both at the same time. Those problems can be your install, software settings, firmware and mechanical issues. Tony’s kit takes a bunch of those out as a starting point. He also provides a base tune that will let you start and run as well as software logic that allows the MS to emulate the fuel pump logic that Porsche uses. It’s opposite of basically ever other car manufacturer.[*]There are two worlds in the MS community – the B&G folks, who designed the original MS and have firmware, the manual and a forum that provides support. This is the firmware Tony uses and for your first install, it’s the path of least resistance if you include his base tune. You can get your car running, and play with and improve the tune on the B&G firmware. The other camp is the MSExtra folks. They have taken the firmware to a new level and I made that switch to add ignition. The downside of this move is that you loose the TBitz fuel pump logic and need to rewire your fuel pump relay to work the way that MS expects it to.
the relay to turn on.[/LIST]

Great notes. I've been using MSExtra since 2007 and done a few different installs. Even at day 1 I wouldn't consider the original B&G code ... the extra has so much more for nearly $0 and a little more research time.

The fuel pump relay for ground switching trigger or hot trigger is a bit tricky for some. I've used both types. There are German relay solutions out there from other manufacturers.